MAGIC FIND (MF) MECHANICS

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: MAGIC FIND (MF) MECHANICS

Post by Will on Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:28 am

No biggie.

A: No. Also, MF doesn't affect: jewelery (rings/amulets/jewels)
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Phew... Smile

OP/shenron did you just answer my ? (in a subsequent post)  then delete your answer in edit? I swear to god someone just did then deleted their post or edited it but can't find anyone else who edited their post. Either that, there is no god, or my eyes are a lot worse than I thought.
Normally I wouldn't care but it makes me think I'm less sane than my abnormal self.

Guessing you did this bc you saw Marco's post so no worries. I just need to know my eyes r functioning

Will
Talic

Mr. Generosity/Former Forumer & Freak :)
Posts : 3859
TGBest Transferred
Country : Armenia

View user profile http://medianxl.net

Back to top Go down

Re: MAGIC FIND (MF) MECHANICS

Post by MarcoNecroX on Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:41 am

I will add an example to the previous formula.
Let's say we killed a slain soul in dunc and it drops a Gothic Plate (Sacred).
Using all the values, the chance it will be unique is:

2,65%  if we have 0 MF.
4,54% if we have 100 MF
6,25% if we have 300 MF.
7,94% if we have 1.000 MF.
9,26% if we have 1.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 MF (Cap, as EMF for uniques doesn't go over 250)


edit: also, afaik, MF affects gamble.

_____________________
http://www.median-xl.com Cookie monster

MarcoNecroX
Malthael

Führer
Posts : 10181
Country : Argentina

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: MAGIC FIND (MF) MECHANICS

Post by The Big Ouchy on Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:23 am

So all we need is 1 heptillion MF for OP farming?

The Big Ouchy
Bear Shaman

More brilliant than Chuck Noris!
Posts : 1154
Country : United States

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: MAGIC FIND (MF) MECHANICS

Post by shenron276 on Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:26 am

@MarcoNecroX wrote:Sorry to disappoint but many things you guys are talking are wrong :/ MF isn't something you can understand by using intuition / logic. In fact it it can't even be considered a percentage... There are a LOT of factors that decide the quality of an item (RNG included!).

To calculate whether an item will be magic, rare, set or unique, the game picks a number between 0 and X, and if this number is 127 or less, the item will be from that quality. How to calculate X?

X = |({(1/A - (mlvl - qlvl)/B)*128*(100/(100 + EMF))} - ({(1/A - (mlvl - qlvl)/B)*128*(100/(100 + EMF))}*C)/1024)|-1

Where everything between {} must be less or equal to D. (Note: both {} have the same thing inside)

A= "base chance". It's 5(m), 20(r), 25(s), 150(u). These values are defined by the mod, and are always the same.
B= It's some sort of divisor. The values here are static in MXLU as well: 6(m), 5(r), 5(s), 1(u)
C= a value granted by the TreasureClass of the monster who is dropping the item. Variable.
D= It's some sort of cap, always static too: 256(m), 640(r), 640(s), 3000(u).
qlvl = Quality level. It's a static number defined by the exact item (like a Sacred Pike)
mlvl = Monster level. In hatred defined by the monster itself, in terror/dest defined by the area level (always 120, 123 for superunique monsters like Baal, Ancients, Crystal Ball from CoV, but NOT monsters from dark summoning, heroic levels, etc)

EMF= MF*Y/(MF+Y) where Y=250(u) Y=500(s) and Y=600(s) - not changable by modmaker unless CE.
The graphic shown in your thread ONLY explains EMF, which is ONLY A PART of the entire MF equation and thus doesn't represent how MF works at ALL. Hell, EMF doesn't even affect the formula as a basic factor or sum, so MF for magic items isn't linear, nor can you make basic assumptions on how double MF will affect your real chance to find unique items.
I knew that what I wrote ain't all correct, that's why I was trying to give all those examples... It should only give an idea of how it works (based on what I read online and partially on the forum)... I'm trying to be helpful for those who constantly keeps asking questions about this, and I admit idk how it works in DETAIL... That's why I didn't write much about diminshing returns, cause idk much mechanics about it, formulas, percentages and everything you provided in your comment... I really respect you man, as a modder and a person, but it sounds like everything I wrote is crap, incorrect and stupid... If it is, I'll personally request deletion of the thread, cause I don't want to spread false information (no offense to you in any way)... I'm not being a smartass, I tried my best to explain it, from the knowledge I gathered...

Thanks for writing that long and elaborate explanation... Clap Clap Who wants to understand it better than I tried to explain, will be pleased...


@MarcoNecroX wrote:
@shenron276 wrote:A: No. Also, MF doesn't affect: jewelery (rings/amulets/jewels)
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
What I meant is: you won't get MORE of those... Question was: Can MF help get you better runes? So I also put jewelery here in the context: that you won't get BETTER rings/amulets/jewels with more MF... But it sounds wrong, yes, so I'll delete it...

@MarcoNecroX wrote:Players 8 has nothing to do with MF. All it does is decreace the chance of NoDrop which is a value in each single treasureclass, meaning that in some cases it doesn't even do shit at all. Since treasureclasses are complex, NoDrop will not necessarily affect an entire TreasureClass, it might just affect it partially.

In THEORY, players 8 MAY increase the total amount of items dropped, depending on the place you are farming. An easy way to understand NoDrop is for example %based chances of uberquest charms and trophies. For example, let's take Tran Athulua sunstone of the gods 1/6 chance. This chance is generated thanks to NoDrop, thus, the bigger the player count, the more chance you have to get the charm, and the less chance you have of getting "nothing". This is NOT the same as trophies 1/50 static chance, because trophies don't use NoDrop. I have no idea why laz used NoDrop here, in MXLU, uldyssian uses Blank TC (the one trophies use) instead of NoDrop, so the chance will always be 1/2.
Already changed, as it's been pointed out to me how it actually works...
EDIT 1: Marco, I'm gonna use your example for explaining players count... Thanks for that... Thumbs Up 

EDIT 2:
@MarcoNecroX wrote:edit: also, afaik, MF affects gamble.
Quite a lot of people asked this... Are you sure? Cause I read on official diablo 2 pages, in magic find section, that it doesn't and I supposed it's the same since it isn't officially stated anywhere...


Last edited by shenron276 on Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:28 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Grammar check :D)

shenron276
Treasure Hunter

Posts : 614
Country : Croatia

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: MAGIC FIND (MF) MECHANICS

Post by MarcoNecroX on Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:10 am

You don't need to delete the thread... I'm just saying that your assumptions were wrong. Like "X is lineal ecuation" while it's not, or doing comparitions between MF. Fact is, before you can define a real MF influence you need to have in mind the item we are using, the monster who dropped it, his treasureclass, and some values that are set in the game.

As for MF affecting gamble, I read recently on some patch notes by Laz it did ,but I guess I cannot be 100% sure unless I can prove it somehow. Either way, it doesn't matter at all, because you can get from it is very limited.

_____________________
http://www.median-xl.com Cookie monster

MarcoNecroX
Malthael

Führer
Posts : 10181
Country : Argentina

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: MAGIC FIND (MF) MECHANICS

Post by shenron276 on Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:25 am

@MarcoNecroX wrote:You don't need to delete the thread... I'm just saying that your assumptions were wrong. Like "X is lineal ecuation" while it's not, or doing comparitions between MF. Fact is, before you can define a real MF influence you need to have in mind the item we are using, the monster who dropped it, his treasureclass, and some values that are set in the game.
Ok, I didn't know that, makes sense... If I wrote something terribly inaccurate, please tell and I'll correct it (or I'll just delete it, if it's complicated to understand and explain to others), as I already did some stuff (thanks to you and x01001010)... Thumbs Up 

@MarcoNecroX wrote:As for MF affecting gamble, I read recently on some patch notes by Laz it did ,but I guess I cannot be 100% sure unless I can prove it somehow. Either way, it doesn't matter at all, because you can get from it is very limited.
Before I wrote it, I looked it up on official diablo 2 page where it says it has no effect, and then I checked the "change logs" from earliest versions of Median to Ultimative, and haven't find it anywhere officially stated, so I made a conclusion by myself... And yeah, about what you can get from it, that's true... Very Happy


Last edited by shenron276 on Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:55 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Grammar check :D)

shenron276
Treasure Hunter

Posts : 614
Country : Croatia

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: MAGIC FIND (MF) MECHANICS

Post by Moasseman on Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:25 am

But Marco, this is the Diablo 2 where 100% frw is not even close to 100% frw.

Moasseman
Glowing Blob

Posts : 353
TGBest Transferred
Country : Finland

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: MAGIC FIND (MF) MECHANICS

Post by terryys on Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:41 am

@MarcoNecroX wrote:Sorry to disappoint but many things you guys are talking are wrong :/ MF isn't something you can understand by using intuition / logic. In fact it it can't even be considered a percentage... There are a LOT of factors that decide the quality of an item (RNG included!).

To calculate whether an item will be magic, rare, set or unique, the game picks a number between 0 and X, and if this number is 127 or less, the item will be from that quality. How to calculate X?

X = |({(1/A - (mlvl - qlvl)/B)*128*(100/(100 + EMF))} - ({(1/A - (mlvl - qlvl)/B)*128*(100/(100 + EMF))}*C)/1024)|-1

Where everything between {} must be higher or equal to D. (Note: both {} have the same thing inside)

A= "base chance". It's 5(m), 20(r), 25(s), 150(u). These values are defined by the mod, and are always the same.
B= It's some sort of divisor. The values here are static in MXLU as well: 6(m), 5(r), 5(s), 1(u)
C= a value granted by the TreasureClass of the monster who is dropping the item. Variable.
D= It's some sort of cap, always static too: 256(m), 640(r), 640(s), 3000(u).
qlvl = Quality level. It's a static number defined by the exact item (like a Sacred Pike)
mlvl = Monster level. In hatred defined by the monster itself, in terror/dest defined by the area level (always 120, 123 for superunique monsters like Baal, Ancients, Crystal Ball from CoV, but NOT monsters from dark summoning, heroic levels, etc)

EMF= MF*Y/(MF+Y) where Y=250(u) Y=500(s) and Y=600(s) - not changable by modmaker unless CE.
The graphic shown in your thread ONLY explains EMF, which is ONLY A PART of the entire MF equation and thus doesn't represent how MF works at ALL. Hell, EMF doesn't even affect the formula as a basic factor or sum, so MF for magic items isn't linear, nor can you make basic assumptions on how double MF will affect your real chance to find unique items.
X = |({(1/A - (mlvl - qlvl)/B)*128*(100/(100 + EMF))} - ({(1/A - (mlvl - qlvl)/B)*128*(100/(100 + EMF))}*C)/1024)|-1
assuming we haven't reached the cap yet (i.e. the value in curly bracket < D), we can factorize the emf part out:
X = ({(1/A - (mlvl - qlvl)/B)*128} - ({(1/A - (mlvl - qlvl)/B)*128}*C)/1024)*(100/(100 + EMF))-1
I have dropped the absolute sign as well, assuming C is less than 1024. X should be a integer, but as long as X is large, this factorization is a good approximation. Therefore the probability for the item to roll this quality is 128/(X+1) = (a constant)*(100 + EMF)/100 = (base probability)*(100 + EMF)/100, which means EMF increases the probability linearly. If you have 100 EMF you have double chance to roll, if you have 200 EMF you have triple chance etc.

terryys
Desert Cat

Posts : 16
Country : Hong Kong

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: MAGIC FIND (MF) MECHANICS

Post by MarcoNecroX on Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:12 am

EMF does in fact work linearly (as well as MF for magic items only) IF you don't mess with the {}'s.
However, my comment was directed towards the fact that EMF doesn't scale linearly unless you make a scenario where you got the exact same items dropped in one run, in which case, it will give you the same probabilities but not the same results. In other words, that any kind of approximation of unique items per run is sloppy as there are a lot of things involved into the drops, since people love doing such assumptions.

On the other hand, this is just the theory part. I have trouble beliving MF and drops overall work as intended. I have yet to hear the reason why NoDrop gets nullified for "no reason at all", aka, why do percentage based charms always drop (sunstone of the gods as example).


Also I forgot to mention, the Y on the EMF formula works as a cap as well. In other words, 250 EMF is the cap for unique items.

_____________________
http://www.median-xl.com Cookie monster

MarcoNecroX
Malthael

Führer
Posts : 10181
Country : Argentina

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: MAGIC FIND (MF) MECHANICS

Post by terryys on Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:58 am

@MarcoNecroX wrote:EMF does in fact work linearly (as well as MF for magic items only) IF you don't mess with the {}'s.
However, my comment was directed towards the fact that EMF doesn't scale linearly unless you make a scenario where you got the exact same items dropped in one run, in which case, it will give you the same probabilities but not the same results. In other words, that any kind of approximation of unique items per run is sloppy as there are a lot of things involved into the drops, since people love doing such assumptions.

On the other hand, this is just the theory part. I have trouble beliving MF and drops overall work as intended. I have yet to hear the reason why NoDrop gets nullified for "no reason at all", aka, why do percentage based charms always drop (sunstone of the gods as example).


Also I forgot to mention, the Y on the EMF formula works as a cap as well. In other words, 250 EMF is the cap for unique items.
EMF should indeed scale linearly on average. The chances to roll unique when you kill different monsters can vary a lot due to different parameters, but after you do a lot of runs with 100 EMF the law of large numbers guarantees you get twice as many uniques as 0 EMF. The keyword is on average, you have to average over the monster types, monster number etc.

as a side note, taking the limit MF tends to infinity in MF*Y/(MF+Y) gives you Y, so it's the cap dictates by the formula. Very similar to some other diminishing returns formula in d2, e.g. it's the reason why some animation frames are unreachable even you have infinite item speed.

terryys
Desert Cat

Posts : 16
Country : Hong Kong

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum