Heroes of the Storm

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Re: Heroes of the Storm

Post by Marquise on Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:22 pm

Got my invite finally ^_^
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Re: Heroes of the Storm

Post by zerger on Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:19 pm

Finaly, I really enjoy Hots because of two things:

- Action start immediately and until the last second of a game
- The games last 20 minutes at more !!!

You don't have to play for nothing during 30minutes, knowing you will lost anyway because of troll and leavers, as the leaver penalties are more and more rudes
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Re: Heroes of the Storm

Post by Brother Laz on Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:45 pm

HotS is simplistic and dumbed down, which makes it much more accessible. As has been demonstrated many times in the past (Apple is very good at this), users don't care about simplistic or dumbed down, they just want to click something and have fun.

If HotS succeeds, this could be a disruptive event that heralds a massive shift in game design, proving that even in a hardcore genre, accessibility always trumps depth. Not accessibility as in popups telling you to press Attack to attack, but accessibility as in reducing the distance between a player who feels like playing a game and the game.

(Modern games are terrible at this. Ever played Shadow of Mordor? You load it up, and it shows 4 different splash screens and a menu and a loading screen and then you're on a tower and the next mission is way off in the distance and you need to set aside 20 minutes to do the mission and if you fail it's all wasted. Bleh. Bleh. Bleh.)

They all get it wrong. They all think accessibility means treating players like retarded chimpanzees, while mobile games are stealing their lunch because all you have to do is grab your phone and tap the screen twice and you're playing a game.

And Riot? Riot will need to either dig in and invest heavily in user retention to achieve the shallowest possible glide slope or start work on League 2. I'd prefer League 2 because it would be a clean slate without the Dota cruft. Five maps with unique objectives, no items, no individual scoring, no last hitting, no illogical Dota features like early pushing being detrimental which we all accepted 5 years ago but no longer, etc. Hell, lock the camera and make it available on iOS and Android. Not because any of this actually improves depth, but because that's what people prefer in 2015 - idiots and dedicated gamers alike.

In the end, depth doesn't matter. Hardcore gamers play Hearthstone. What counts is the in-crowd feeling (being part of an active game), the escapism and the social aspects including memetic potential (League got off to a great start with Teemo etc and then went super serious mode).

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at Riot. They have to make a choice now, and it's a choice between their Dota heritage and the new reality where all but the most hardcore gamers don't feel like they want to learn an item shop anymore. I hope they make the right choice.
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Re: Heroes of the Storm

Post by Marquise on Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:43 pm

When did u played Dota last time ? The meta changes every patch , you got heroes that can deal with early pushes and drag the game to end game. In the end Dota is more enjoyable if you got the time to learn all its features. If every game feels and plays different you dont need more than one map. For me HOTS failed with its casual gameplay, the games are short .The graphics are fine as usual but the rest is kinda meh for me. LoL looks worse than Wc3.
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Re: Heroes of the Storm

Post by Asteroth on Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:18 pm

@Brother Laz wrote:And Riot? Riot will need to either dig in and invest heavily in user retention to achieve the shallowest possible glide slope or start work on League 2. I'd prefer League 2 because it would be a clean slate without the Dota cruft. Five maps with unique objectives, no items, no individual scoring, no last hitting, no illogical Dota features like early pushing being detrimental which we all accepted 5 years ago but no longer, etc. Hell, lock the camera and make it available on iOS and Android. Not because any of this actually improves depth, but because that's what people prefer in 2015 - idiots and dedicated gamers alike.

I'm no game designer, but I feel like i disagree with you. 
League is one of the most popular ESports in the world, so clearly they have a formula that's succeeding. But I agree, that if heroes of storm does pull away a significant chunk of players away from LoL or Dota2 (or smite, whatever that is), then the respective companies will need to adapt. 

I just don't think that'll happen. I think heroes of storm will fill its own niche for more casual gamers.
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Re: Heroes of the Storm

Post by zerger on Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:22 am

If you really play HotS, you cannot say it is a casual game.
The teamfight are as complex as in other Mobas and require the same amount of skills, Mercenaries are efficient only if you summon them at the right timing (like just before the map quest) and implies the players have to have a good reading of the game, and the removal of common items have been replaced by skill upgrades which work like specific items which cannot be used by other heroes. Also, the game doesn't forgive mistakes like in LoL where you can win the game just after an Ace while your team was rofl-stomped the rest of the time. If a team get an advantage and doesn't do mistakes, they will win the game quickly.

At the moment, all players coming from LoL or Dota can be quickly recognized in-game, as they will play dumbly alone, farming a lane and thinking the map quest is useless and doesn't deserve their attention "because they are so skilled they can carry the game alone"...and in the end, they are responsable of the defeat of their team.
Blizzard managed to make a true different moba, not just a copy-paste of dota like you can see everywhere else, the mechanics may look simplified but in the end, they won't be easy to be mastered. They also manage to remove 2 big cons:
- no more early 15 minutes of boring laning where you MUST not kill creep
- much much less leavers because the game is mush less frustrating thanks to shorter games. You no longer have to play fake game during 20-30 minutes because you would like to leave but there is the leaver-penalty hammed on your head. Games only last around 15 minutes, and when you just realize you are going to lose, it is just a matter of 5 more minutes.

Like Starcraft, easy to start but hard to master. I am not saying HotS is the most complex moba (I think Dota2 is), but definitely not a casual game
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Re: Heroes of the Storm

Post by Marquise on Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:02 pm

Theres no last hitting , theres no lane controlling , there are no item that can decide fights or the outcome the game , the games are short this makes the chance of mistakes really slim and if you got the advantage you will win. Whats the point in that for the enemy team ? Theres no comeback mechanic. For me those things make it a casual game. I didnt said u dont need skills , or brain. But its nowhere near hard to master.
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Re: Heroes of the Storm

Post by zerger on Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:45 pm

Last hitting is just something tedious which makes support boring to play.
I don't understand why you say there is no lane controlling. Farming a lane not defended by opponents give a ton of exp (even more than getting the first kill) and letting mercenaries attacking your building can quickly be a fatal mistake. The only differences with other mobas are the design of the map and the mount which allow you to switch between lanes easier and start ganking much earlier in a game
Items, which offer flexibility in a build, are replaced by talents. The true difference is the common level of the team, meaning you will never win a game alone because of a big item, and you will also never be useless during the game because of having died too much
The game is shorter which means losing is less frustrating because you won't have the feeling of having wasted one hour of your time. But I guarantee comebacks occurs more often than you think, the respawn time is enough long to punish the leading team from losing one or two team fights. And when a team is far superior to another, I prefer that the game ends soon instead of being chain-killed in your base by a team who will try farm even more to get crazy k/d ratio instead of just destroying the nexus

I really don't see why it would be easier to master Hots than LoL. Lol players will look at item building guides on internet, Hots players will do the same thing with talent building guides
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Re: Heroes of the Storm

Post by Asteroth on Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:41 pm

Heroes is definitely a different Moba from all the rest (i dont like saying hots cause heart of the swarm), but in many ways they did make the game more casual.

Shared xp balances out weaker players on a team. No items is a pretty big drop in complexity and talents do not come close to replacing that. In competitive LoL players tweak and adjust their items all the time to their opposition and to arising opportunities ("did i just get first blood? oh look i can afford this expensive item i couldn't otherwise"). 

Items increase build opportunities. 
Look at Fizz or Kayle or Nidalee. SO many possible build varieties (Ability power vs attack damage bruiser, etc). Do you have a jungle sejuani? Well you can go full tank or full AP or a hybrid (just 1 AP item or maybe 3). There's so much more customization. 

With that said, the objective based game play in Heroes is really cool and quite innovative. Example: the map with the pirate ships and the coins that you can convert into bombardments of enemy buildings. That's really cool, and dragons/barons (LoL) and Roshan (dota2) are rather boring compared to that.
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Re: Heroes of the Storm

Post by Marquise on Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:12 pm

I cant talk about LOL since i never played it. But the talents will never be a good replacement for items. They took away to much with that. It is a fun game dont get me wrong , but its not a game that i will play for long. I meant lane controlling by last hitting and denying creeps. Also the maps are small. Look at Dota , the map is huge comapred to LOL and HOtS. There are so many juking spots , you can play mind games. I think you never played DOta since u think HOTS is hard to master , even LOL is harder to master and if u ask me LOL will never get close to Dota's complexity. You can fast gank in Dota aswell with TP scrolls/Boots Of Travel.
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Re: Heroes of the Storm

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