Heroes of the Storm

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Re: Heroes of the Storm

Post by Asteroth on Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:00 pm

Ehh i play LoL and played dota1 (back in wc3 days, and that isn't all that different from dota2 in terms of mechanics).
They are both equally complicated in their own ways. You can fast gank in LoL as well (teleport summoner skill). You have lots of brushes for juking (which is different mechanically from using high ground in dota2 or going though tree paths). In fact, mechanically dota2 and LoL have little in common. 
I could probably write an essay about how different the 2 games really are, and I think they are much more different than they are similar. Either way, this is off topic lol, but i do recommend you try out LoL just to see what it's like. 

Ultimately, i'd argue there's more depth in LoL because of Masteries and runes and summoner spells, in addition to a hero's skills and items.

On topic: I do love how in heroes you can mount and move around faster. It's a neat mechanic.
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Re: Heroes of the Storm

Post by Brother Laz on Sat Apr 11, 2015 4:31 pm

A few thoughts:

1/

Specialists are a design failure. The original idea was that you could win by fighting better or by pushing harder. But if your team comp is even slightly worse at fighting than the opponent, you will lose all of the objectives. Because it doesn't really matter whether you lose a tribute 5v5 or temple 1v1 by a sliver of health or get wafflestomped into the ground - you lose, and the enemy takes the objective.

To "compensate" for this, specialists push harder. Of course the enemy will proceed to take the objective and either push back even harder, force a teamfight at an advantage or win the game outright if they take it enough times. You can't beat that just by pushing unless you have enough pushing power to win the game before they get ahead too much.

This means the typical matchmaker team with one specialist on it is the worst possible team comp. You lose combat strength, possibly fatally, but you can't stack enough specialists to win the game before you lose it either. I'm pretty sure Zagara-Azmodan-Gazlowe-Hammer-Tassadar would have a pretty high win rate, but removing specialists from this lineup in favour of combat champions only makes it worse until you have more combat champions than the enemy.

This may be why Sylvanas is such a free win in quick match. She's the only specialist that isn't really a specialist at all but an (overloaded and mobility creeped) assassin.

How to solve: make sure the objectives require some manpower to capture, so when you lose a teamfight and they're down to their 50 hp Li Li, she can't just walk up to the tribute and take it.

2/

The maps vary widely.

Sky temple (2 capture points, stand on them to fire lazors at the enemy base) does a great job at providing a different experience each time you play it. It is also the only map where "being 1% better at fights" doesn't automatically win every objective due to the neutral defenders, and there's a good balance between rewarding objective control and allowing the losing team to counterplay. The barrage at the end is genius because it rewards fighting over a shrine that's about to expire.

The spider map is awesome because it is about laning instead of objective control, which puts it ahead of many of HotS' more mindless objective centric maps. The objective is open ended and the drop points are hard to contest due to the bush, so proper farming skill will carry you to a win. It also has a reasonable degree of complexity and places to hide eggs and nydus worms. Smile

Garden of terror is well designed in that there is little snowballing because you don't get shut out of the objective unless you are really far behind, and it has about as much juking potential as the Dota map. However, it is perhaps the worst map to play with noobs because you HAVE to do the plant bosses (or at least the one on your side) because the solo camps give so few seeds. This requires 3-4 people and the map is so big that many players can't be bothered to walk all the way to the game-winning golden snitch. If they don't care enough to help you get the first boss while the enemy gets theirs uncontested, you know within the first 5 minutes that your chance of winning is 0%.

On to the bad maps.

Dragon Shire has a design flaw. To win the objective, a team has to capture both shrines AND channel the statue. That last part is a deal breaker because it means that a team that doesn't feel like rolling the dice can permanently cockblock the opposing team from ever getting the objective by simply sending one guy to camp near the statue. The enemy can't gank your guy because sending people mid leaves them open for a backdoor. The end result is that both teams waste minutes of their lives pointlessly nullifying each other's progress toward the objective instead of doing something constructive like pushing lanes.

Blackbeard snowballs too much because getting coins is 80% PvE, there's no way to stop coins from getting turned in eventually, and after about two cannon barrages you lose control of the map area that has all of the coins (bonus points in that 2 out of 4 coin camps are covered by the same watchtower). Worse, you drop coins when you die. What ends up happening is that both sides are exactly equal until a teamfight occurs at a chest, watchtower or Blackbeard and the winning team proceeds to loot the entire middle area and is now about 20 coins ahead. GG.

Undead mines is a problem for the same reason. It takes some good lessons from sky temple in that the objective isn't winner-takes-all, but it might as well be because all of the skulls are in a tiny underground area with no vision. You can get about 20 skulls uncontested before you run into each other or some drooling moron starts doing the boss before the enemy team is dealt with. Whoever loses the fight (the side with the guy who was late into the mines or started the boss) gets to defend against Unicron while the enemy takes all of the mercenaries, then defend against the mercenaries and the enemy team. The enemy now owns the middle part of the map and snowballs to a win. On the bright side, did you notice that you can see yourself in the mine through the holes in the overworld? Attention to detail is over 9000.

Cursed hollow sucks giant baneling eggs because the entire map is about periodically interrupting whatever you're doing and having a 5v5 teamfight at a randomly spawning tribute with a 15 second warning. You are doing mercs and can't just stop and run across the map? Too bad, you lose the tribute. Your team is worse at 5v5 than the enemy team? Too bad, you lose every tribute. That's pretty much all there is to it, with a heaping of random luck on top.

3/

Hero design is not as bad as I thought at first, but it isn't awesome either.

The problem is that all of the weird and wonderful heroes are either unviable or (occasionally) OP because all you really need is teamfighting capability. Any hero based on fighting NPCs is a liability on almost every map because their team can't contest objectives (the spider map is the only one that doesn't include a mandatory fight). Abathur, Zagara, Azmodan, Gazlowe are unplayable garbage.

The good part is that their more basic heroes have a strong identity and unique kits. Muradin stuns you, and can get upgrades to stun you some more and yo dawg stun you while he stuns you and then stun you. Zeratul is the #1 1v1 with permanent stealth but sucks at teamfights. Etc. There are maybe 20 viable heroes in the game, but they're an awesome bunch of 20.

There are some boring heroes as well, like Li Li (who's basically Sona), and heals are OP right now, but they can probably fix that. Oh, and mobility creep and overcomplicitis have (already) made their way into the game with the release of Sylvanas, a CertainlyT champion if I ever saw one. Mobility, burst, poke and pushing power, all conveniently in the specialist slot which otherwise has only garbage in it.

4/

Talents!

Yes, talents are better than items if there is no real choice in which items to take (LoL). There is no real choice in which talents to take either, but at least they do cool things such as giving you flash or letting you flip people twice.

It still doesn't beat a good solid Dota 2 item pool though.

It doesn't help that they are laughably imbalanced. Quick! Which perk is better?

· Psi storm applies a 25% slow for 1 second.
· Psi storm can be cast twice for no extra cost.

Yeah.

5/

Toxicity!

Ingame chat is used for two things: to say gg just before you win, or to call each other noobs. Still, things are not as bad as in LoL - the most common insult is "noob" and very occasionally "this [hero X]" as opposed to the LoL community's heavy use of "retard" or "get cancer". Wheee.

Fun fact: there is in fact an individual score: "XP Contribution". Better not have significantly less than everyone else.

6/

Le grind.

Expect about 15K gold within a day due to get-em-hooked bonuses, then gold gains drop off a cliff into the Mariana Trench and drill down into the core of the earth.

Fun fact: unlike in League, you can actually see how much stuff costs, and it turns out that 1000 gold is almost exactly €1. Your 50 gold reward for winning a game? Oh, that's 5 cents. Your 200 gold quest reward? 20 cents. It takes about 20 games to farm a chocolate bar worth of gold. Now you know why League doesn't show you how much things cost.

---

Keeping this updated.
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Re: Heroes of the Storm

Post by Metalistas on Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:52 pm

TL; but i read it.
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Re: Heroes of the Storm

Post by Asteroth on Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:24 pm

Really interesting points. I had no idea how diverse the maps and their objectives were until now. Game is in Beta right now iirc? Blizzard still has time to iron out the kinks (if they care to)
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Re: Heroes of the Storm

Post by hellgrind on Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:11 pm

BLaz u forgot to mention that the game is almost unplayable on lower spec pc (like i have). Details over 9000 ? yeah why not but fuck u if u dont have killing machine pc you wont be able to play,serwers are super laggy (in europe dunno about other). 25e for skin ? it's even more that doto2 have, wtf blizz ?
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Re: Heroes of the Storm

Post by Asteroth on Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:40 pm

Bli$$ard
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Re: Heroes of the Storm

Post by zerger on Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:18 am

I already won with a full specialist team Smile
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Re: Heroes of the Storm

Post by Brother Laz on Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:15 pm

Is it just me or is every Raynor player useless? They ALL farm lanes nonstop, ignoring objectives. When prodded about the importance of doing stuff to win the game, they go like LEL it's just a game.

I just had one accuse me of being a "no life ragekid" because I assist pinged on his head a lot because I was trying to get seeds while he stood in the lane right next to them auto attacking the creeps. The enemy ended up getting 6 garden terrors and our team got a total of 48 seeds, of which 48 were provided solo by me. When I told him that this isn't LoL and objectives are like the only thing that matters, he told me I was "trolling myself".

Well, I guess this is a more casual and less toxic moba, right?

Oh, the game before that I was told to drown myself. GG Blizzard.

---

Also, I ended a match with 13.25 takedowns. When Blizzard advertised that "a kill is a kill", they didn't say you could get half a kill somehow.
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Re: Heroes of the Storm

Post by Brother Laz on Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:18 pm

@hellgrind wrote:BLaz u forgot to mention that the game is almost unplayable on lower spec pc (like i have).

That's hard to test on my pc though. Relevant picture:

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Re: Heroes of the Storm

Post by Brother Laz on Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:46 pm

I'm trying to level up Zeratul but my teams are the worst bunch of drooling retards on the face of the planet. They have 21 spider gems, I ping a ton of times on the altar they are standing right next to, they go hurrrrrrr... wut i do with that and walk away in the direction of the enemy team, run into Vayne Valla and drop their 21 gems. When you facepalm in chat, they tell you it's just a game and to chill (and presumably enjoy your hopeless loss).

Alternatively, they're a bunch of raging kids and you get reported for "no help" and told to "go back to lol" (says the one who reports everyone), then harrassed via PM. Blizzard does nothing, of course.

The meta? Specialists aren't viable in a meta team, supports that aren't healers aren't viable, and in general there are about 15 heroes you can realistically pick.

Meh.


Edit: I'm done with the game for now. Blackheart's Bay. I tell the team to STICK TOGETHER. We stick together. I repeat to STICK TOGETHER. EVERYONE PLEASE STICK TOGETHER AND WE WIN. We're one cannon barrage removed from a win. The FUCKING MORONS split up. I tell them to STICK WITH THE TEAM. They ignore my ping spam and calls (which have proven to be 100% correct). They get ganked and die. Enemy takes 22 coins. They get 2 barrages in a row off and we lose. It doesn't matter how good you are as a player, if just 1 player decides he's too good for this teamplay thing, you lose. You can't carry due to team xp, you can't outplay anyone, you just lose. This is infuriating and it's all thanks to mandatory 5v5 teamfights on every map.

This happened 7 games in a row. People just go solo and die and we can't contest objectives anymore. I tell them to pleeeeeeeeeeeease stick with the team and ping until it doesn't let me anymore, but no. They decide they know better than someone who's been making the right calls for 15 minutes straight, they die, they toss the game, I waste my very limited free time.

"But it's a team game!" I didn't sign up to be on a team with 4 poorly trained monkeys and get punished for it. (Nor did I sign up to be fed a free win because the enemy team gets dragon knight and uses it to chase Nova around the jungle instead of pushing.)
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