Melee suggestion.

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Melee suggestion.

Post by desolator on Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:37 am

I'll try to make it not sound like a QQ post and be as constructive as possible. I've played Median in the past, about 5 years ago or so when it was hosted on D2Maniacs. Maybe you guys remember the update I made for Runeword Browser to support Median, it was helpful to me when the ladder started. I've started playing again, sadly I haven't played the whole mod, explored all the Uberlevels and such so this is going to be a newbie view on how things are happening in multiplayer based on almost all games I've been on.

My main concern is the lack of melee players. Median was/is known for monsters two-shotting any player, it's challenging and hence it can be fun but at the same time it also makes people chose other builds containing minions, ranged attacks and reanims for easier farming. Playing as a Barbarian I realized that there are some skills that must be mandatory in order to achieve high defense to mitigate damage if you are focused on melee, which sadly limits the amount of viable builds.

Instead of suggesting to buff/nerf stuff, I'd like to suggest creating/changing a Heroic or Uberlevel, similar on difficulty to Kurast 3000 BA but focused for melee players, maybe by making monsters fear minions constantly, decrease a large amount of the minion's attack, defense, resistances and/or HP (a mechanic could be applied to remove such debuffs for self) and/or turning them against you (unsure if such thing is possible) with a significant drop bias like the other locations.

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Re: Melee suggestion.

Post by MarcoNecroX on Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:38 am

Melee is good, the difference is that ranged is usually better.

The thing is that there is no true 'melee', pretty much other than bloodhatred barb.
Most melee classes will end up doing the same as ranged ones, throw a bunch of missiles around.

This said, melee & ranged are sort of mixed up. Let me give some examples:
- Retaliate paladin is technically a melee class yet the huge amount of knockback makes it act sort of ranged class.
- Barragezon is technically ranged yet the mechanics of the skill have a clear benefit when used at close-range.


There are more examples such as old Thunder Slam barb; while it was technically a melee class, it was designed around perma-stunning the entire screen. All the melee risks that build had were to get the first tslam to stun the screen.

On the other side there are also several popular melee builds that are also incredibly strong such as melee sorc, which I'd say is on the top #5 of best builds in the game, together with throwsin, barragezon, uhc pally and xbow nec. Usually very-ranged builds such as cascade druid or wyrmzon / bloodzon do not require to get hit at all, but they are compensated by lack of strength.

tl;dr - I think 'melee' builds are fine; if we define melee as being in a very close range to monsters. If we define melee as clearing mobs in face-to-face fist combat then I'd say such builds don't even exist in MXL (and never did).

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Re: Melee suggestion.

Post by desolator on Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:05 am

As for the Barbarian, all Melee skills other than Thunder Slam require making contact (face to face) to work (eg no Shift click to activate). Myself I have been using Thunderslam whenever the timer is up, which makes a world of difference in every situation, especially in Kurast 3000 BA - which is part of my point.

Melee seems feasible, but it requires gear and there seems to be missing a stepping stone somewhere in the whole process.

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Re: Melee suggestion.

Post by grimjerk on Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:41 pm

It isn't that there aren't any viable "melee" builds its just that there aren't any "melee" builds that are like the simple "melee" builds of cLoD. Zealots were simple. You put Fanatasism/Conviction/Holy (Fire/Cold/Lightning) on right click and Zeal on left click and you stayed that way for 90% of the game. There is a simple reason that this, mostly, does not exist in Median. Monster density.

There are toons in Median that you could hack your way through the game cLoD style. The BloodHatred barbarian for example. He could do it without procs. But it would be mind-numbingly, skull-fuckingly tedious to swing at practically every monster in the game. So you slap on either elemental procs or wdm procs and become a melee/caster melee/ranged hybrid.

A spearie could make it through the whole game using just Takedown and Hyena Strike, but you go nuts doing it. Just too many damn monsters to have to poke.

There are a couple of exceptions. Naginata sin/Pummel Treewarden/melee sorc, but these aren't really exceptions as they have area effect attacks making them--like everything else--melee/ranged hybrids.

I've said time and time again that the buckshot necro is really a two-handed melee character based on Marco's functional definition of melee combat in Median.


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Re: Melee suggestion.

Post by hellgrind on Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:12 pm

The true melee char is 2h sword amazon.

p.s damm i use this to often ;f

Not topic related:
It's just me or flags on forum (country flags) are disabled ?

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Re: Melee suggestion.

Post by Gekko64 on Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:36 pm

it's just you, I can tell you're polish

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Re: Melee suggestion.

Post by Brother Laz on Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:53 pm

@desolator wrote:Instead of suggesting to buff/nerf stuff, I'd like to suggest creating/changing a Heroic or Uberlevel, similar on difficulty to Kurast 3000 BA but focused for melee players, maybe by making monsters fear minions constantly, decrease a large amount of the minion's attack, defense, resistances and/or HP (a mechanic could be applied to remove such debuffs for self) and/or turning them against you (unsure if such thing is possible) with a significant drop bias like the other locations.

Bremmtown was supposed to be this due to everything porting on your head. It didn't quite hit the mark.

@grimjerk wrote:Naginata sin/Pummel Treewarden/melee sorc, but these aren't really exceptions as they have area effect attacks making them--like everything else--melee/ranged hybrids.

I don't think "AoE" disqualifies a character for being melee, otherwise the D3 barb would be a mage.

My definition of melee would be that it requires or rewards monsters being close to the caster. Things like Great Hunt, Lemures and Barrier Strike require one monster to be close while everything else should just stay the hell away (in fact Barrier Strike is useless in a close quarters fight) so I wouldn't really call them melee. Barrage otoh is a melee build in my book.

Not sure what the unintentional traps are supposed to be then. Things like Tantrum that keep shooting from your position.

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Re: Melee suggestion.

Post by grimjerk on Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:19 pm

@Brother Laz wrote:
@desolator wrote:Instead of suggesting to buff/nerf stuff, I'd like to suggest creating/changing a Heroic or Uberlevel, similar on difficulty to Kurast 3000 BA but focused for melee players, maybe by making monsters fear minions constantly, decrease a large amount of the minion's attack, defense, resistances and/or HP (a mechanic could be applied to remove such debuffs for self) and/or turning them against you (unsure if such thing is possible) with a significant drop bias like the other locations.

Bremmtown was supposed to be this due to everything porting on your head. It didn't quite hit the mark.

@grimjerk wrote:Naginata sin/Pummel Treewarden/melee sorc, but these aren't really exceptions as they have area effect attacks making them--like everything else--melee/ranged hybrids.

I don't think "AoE" disqualifies a character for being melee, otherwise the D3 barb would be a mage.

My definition of melee would be that it requires or rewards monsters being close to the caster. Things like Great Hunt, Lemures and Barrier Strike require one monster to be close while everything else should just stay the hell away (in fact Barrier Strike is useless in a close quarters fight) so I wouldn't really call them melee. Barrage otoh is a melee build in my book.

Not sure what the unintentional traps are supposed to be then. Things like Tantrum that keep shooting from your position.

I wasn't saying that they weren't melee by the definition that Marco--the one you basically just repeated--gave in his response to this thread, but that while they were the closest things to traditional melee (clod melee), the area effect part made them effectively melee/ranged hybrids. We might term this missile based melee.

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Re: Melee suggestion.

Post by Jelle on Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:09 pm

@Brother Laz wrote:
@desolator wrote:Instead of suggesting to buff/nerf stuff, I'd like to suggest creating/changing a Heroic or Uberlevel, similar on difficulty to Kurast 3000 BA but focused for melee players, maybe by making monsters fear minions constantly, decrease a large amount of the minion's attack, defense, resistances and/or HP (a mechanic could be applied to remove such debuffs for self) and/or turning them against you (unsure if such thing is possible) with a significant drop bias like the other locations.

Bremmtown was supposed to be this due to everything porting on your head. It didn't quite hit the mark.

Bremmtown is an excellent uber. The drop rates/bias just has to be improved.

For the entire "what is a melee discussion" I really think the answer is rather simple. If you can attack astrogha without being raped by a frozen orb you're ranged. simple.

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Re: Melee suggestion.

Post by Asteroth on Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:45 pm

@desolator wrote:As for the Barbarian, all Melee skills other than Thunder Slam require making contact (face to face) to work (eg no Shift click to activate).

Wait, besides bloodhatred, every other skill can be activated from a distance by holding shift. I was just playing my barb and I rarely have to close distance to kill everything with thunderslam/stormblast.
Was this mechanic changed in the more recent versions?

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