Theorycrafting : Ureh and Yshari

Page 1 of 4 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Theorycrafting : Ureh and Yshari

Post by manafire on Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:23 pm

I love this map.

I'm sure there are a few Laz-era black walls or map errors or whatever; I don't know that it's perfect, but it's really cool. It's huge, it has a clever mix of open areas and claustrophobic hallways. The theme, the atmosphere, it's great . . .

But the level is designed to be ignored.

I don't mean the quest itself, but we have this cool map, and the whole purpose of it is to get through as fast as possible, avoid everything, kill one boss, and (for most people, I'd wager) never come back.

It's a bit late in its lifespan to suggest overhauling the quest (i.e., LET ME KILL THE ZOMBIES), but perhaps some mechanic could be added to encourage exploring more of the map instead of just the one little path you're supposed to take.

EDIT: read the Sigma Suggestions Forum Rules topic  Mr Green 

So, Ureh: fine as is, an uber wherein most of the level is avoided (and why have a level that's not meant to be played?), or revamped and reimagined as a potential farming spot?

/sacrilege


Last edited by manafire on Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:25 am; edited 2 times in total

manafire
Fairy Witch

Belt (Sacred)
Posts : 325
TGGood 40
Country : Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Theorycrafting : Ureh and Yshari

Post by archon256 on Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:28 pm

If you really wanted to expand on Ureh, the easiest thing to do would be to have a second part of the map that you can take a portal to when you kill Juris Khan, and that section contains zombies you can kill.

Kinda strange though, the whole idea behind the uber was to make an uber where only your defensive stats matter.

archon256
Amazon Warrior

I Am Someone
Posts : 1738
Country : United States

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Theorycrafting : Ureh and Yshari

Post by manafire on Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:34 pm

I guess my thesis here is that the map looks too nice to only merit a one-time charm reward as opposed to regular loot/repeated visits (outside of trophy attempts).

I don't think the function of the Citizens should be changed per se, (thereby keeping the defensive theme of the level), but I'd like to see something enabling, well, more standard farming.

One of Laz's little description tidbits for the level was, if I recall correctly, "Run around like a helpless damsel in a horror movie and try to find the one place you can go." Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that's the most fun we could have with this map.

manafire
Fairy Witch

Belt (Sacred)
Posts : 325
TGGood 40
Country : Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Theorycrafting : Ureh and Yshari

Post by zaphodbrx on Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:15 am

Yeah, Ureh is an awesome uberlevel. The mood, the lighting, the areas, all cool stuff.
The only problem is there isn't anything to kill, thus no items.

Imo good solution would be to have punisher turrets drop better items.

zaphodbrx
Bane Hunter

Posts : 384
Country : Niger

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Theorycrafting : Ureh and Yshari

Post by manafire on Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:28 am

I like that idea!

What about special rooms that the citizens can't enter that sort of act as respites, except there are a handful of turrets and darkwardens that you can kill for loot. Those special rooms could act as breaks along the way (and once you're done "farming" those rooms, you can teleport out over the mass of citizens waiting by the entrance); or they could be out of the way to promote exploring more than just the one line you're supposed to zip through the level along.

/making mockery of the engine

manafire
Fairy Witch

Belt (Sacred)
Posts : 325
TGGood 40
Country : Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Theorycrafting : Ureh and Yshari

Post by korcola on Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:57 am

i remember when punisher tower had 2% to summon MarcoNecroX when you kill it  Bouncing

korcola
Dark Templar

♨‎ (ノಥ益ಥ)ノ ┻━┻ ♨ - Honorable Soldier
Posts : 1211
TGBest 1
Country : South Korea

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Theorycrafting : Ureh and Yshari

Post by MarcoNecroX on Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:54 am

/sacrilege

_____________________
http://www.median-xl.com Cookie monster

MarcoNecroX
Malthael

Führer
Posts : 10181
Country : Argentina

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Theorycrafting : Ureh and Yshari

Post by manafire on Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:23 am

Creator's Hand!!

EDIT :: topic merge /

Marco's probably going to kill me ^^

There's almost certainly a better place to broach this discussion, so I apologize vehemently for any clutter. Onward:

Yshari is, admittedly, a gorgeous map. Extremely varied aesthetic, but following a rational progression that really allows for its complexity. Having said that, its linearity is perhaps its biggest flaw. There is no level as linear as this. Don't get me wrong, it's fun, and as with my Ureh topic, I'm not complaining or trying to fix anything; just imagining how to make something that's already great even more enjoyable.

I guess my thing here could be explained like this: Yshari has 2 correct paths, and then a larger number of dead ends. There's the ONE correct path to the end, and then there's each section's path to the miniboss. Everything else, every turn, every passageway, is a pointless dead end. Okay, not pointless, because there's farming to be done, but this has from its inception felt too much like a newspaper puzzle - one correct answer to be penciled in every time (the same answer, no less). Now, this is a complex enough maze where map variants would just make it worse. So instead . . .

What if the map were opened up? Instead of having one thin path to follow, why not several that wind up in the same (correct) place? Instead of 1 path to the end and 1 path to each miniboss, why not several paths of various geometry to the same goal(s)?

Instead of 2 good paths and 8 dead ends, why not 5 good paths and 5 dead ends? This could be as simple as erasing some of the walls just to enable a few arbitrary pathfinding choices to mix your progression through the dungeon up.

No, I don't want a clear cut to the Baal section from the entrance. I still want that defined progression through the level. But I DO think the map could benefit from an opened progression that still rigidly adheres to the general idea it has now. So, TL;DR, kind of flavored with the Act III Durance map quality, where you can move more sort of freely toward the goal, but instead still within the predefined limits of what Yshari Sanctum already is.

P.S. Some parts of the map seem to have this already, but I'm not certain. If that's the case, it could certainly be more intuitive. I feel that the second section is the biggest perpetrator. The third section could involve no more than overlapping the initial paths every now and then to reduce the need to backtrack (which isn't that fun).

All I got for now. Sorry again, talk too much :p

manafire
Fairy Witch

Belt (Sacred)
Posts : 325
TGGood 40
Country : Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Theorycrafting : Ureh and Yshari

Post by MarcoNecroX on Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:55 am

Marco's probably going to kill me ^^

Everyone makes mistakes, no need to apologize. I actually like to see non-ego or non-crying posts with feedback/theorycrafting. The main problem when doing a complete theorycraft is ignorance of limitations. Of course not taking ignorance as an insult, but this often leads to people making rather obvious suggestions that are not implemented yet because they are not possible. An obvious extreme example of this would be adding a new character or act. Then you got other things that people always ignore like, limits, like the 1023 proc-limit or the 511 affix-limit, and if someone tries to suggest an item without knowing that, the suggestion will be bad.

Either way that's not entirely topic releated now, but since I'm back to work on sigma and im always open for theorycraft or arguing with people on why they suck at bowzon, I thought I'd clarify that so people know why their suggestion might not been taken.

So I think I already made my opinion about ureh. It's ureh and it needs to say that way because it's a core uber in MXL's history. There were times were people didn't know anything about it, only that it was really big, dark, and hard. What noob didn't go into ureh the first time ever he went to graveyard? So killable zombies is not going to happen, ever. What might happen is that the uber would become actually hard again. A thing I had in mind while creating void is making it hard for the player to have clear perspective of the map itself. So there are many approaches here. Either make it directly harder by doing stuff like making it hard to get a lot of FRW, giving the citizens bigger chance to hit and deadlier poison attack. Or you can just make the uber 20 times bigger, make the automap transparent like TA/fauzt, and not add the boss into a corner. Of course some people might not like that because farming it would be a lot harder, but it would make the uber way more fun.


As for Yshari. I think the map is original and nothing more. I remember first when I did it, I thought it was awesome, but then I made the triune map and I thought that was even more awesome, because it was sort of that tileset madness where you would get to see jails on an ice cave, trees near frozen rivers, etc. Then I made void map and knew the map mechanism was as good as it can get. Not trying to brag, more to show the progression and realise that when I made Yshari I was worse in mapmaking and modding overall. Linearity is probably the best way to define the flaw of the map, I see it as a big square filled with stuff, that eventually gets annoying. I know for fact that most people either love it or hate it. But many players like to just repeat tasks when playing a game, I see it like a book, it's a creation from someone who tries to create fun stuff, and specially, new and original things.

The problem of the uber on it's creation side is that it's extremely complex to randomize. It's not that simple to add more non-dead ends because there aren't that many. To make a dead end you need to do it as soon as you enter each first area. If you add a dead end that is simply a room with no doors then it doesn't really count as one because it gets unnoticed.  So, you make a dead end from the start, which means there won't be that many dead ends, and it's usually one dead end, one direction to boss, one direction for the next area. And if you accidentally go to a dead end, well, that's kind of the point of it. We can take ureh as an example here, it's like a maze without dead ends. If you keep walking towards the bottom of your screen, you will make it.

Yes ideas like a waypoint or static portal shrines have come up. The only true consequence of a waypoint would to remove half of the map. But I can always find a way to make something better, so my call here would be to make it more areas A/B/C/D/E, instead of 1-5, and remove a strict order to do the uberquest. Next step would be to allow the entrance to the uber to be on one of these A-E areas, and that would randomize it a bit. Of course here you would need to randomize the boss room too, but on average it should make farming it faster.  Make it less of a punish-the-player uberquest, and replace the pain with adding a trophy to it, to ensure a headache. The problem here is that the uberquest currently has a difficulty curve, and each area becomes harder than the one before.


You talk too much? Ez win.

_____________________
http://www.median-xl.com Cookie monster

MarcoNecroX
Malthael

Führer
Posts : 10181
Country : Argentina

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Theorycrafting : Ureh and Yshari

Post by pa5call on Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:56 am

Any thing that cannot be killed eventually is spoiling the game. Assassin my ass…  Silent 
Ureh is completely out of context –wanna make it complete? - just add quick Space Invaders action at the end… Wait, make them untouchable as well to make sure U got no chance once they’re down to make sure players stay tuned in the useless mood…
As far as I know, that movie had scenes showing ordinary people smacking zombies over their heads with a crude bat (white item, not even one Ohm rune). Do not get me wrong, I like old arcade classics, but sometimes I like a bit of Bloody Diablo too…  Wink 
PS: Really looking forward to kill everything that moves a muscle in Yshari after today’s update… Thank U in advance dear Sirs!  Smile

pa5call
Cathedral Drow

Posts : 526
TGGood 7
Country : United Kingdom

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 4 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum