ThrowSin: Wychwind/Maelstrom Builds

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ThrowSin: Wychwind/Maelstrom Builds

Post by Nanashi on Tue May 13, 2014 4:31 pm

Hello, everyone. Very new to Median XL and Ultimative.

I am currently nearing the end of my assassin's Hatred run. At this point, I've enjoyed doing the challenges (really love the concept of LC, especially LC0!), so I read the documentation in advance and tried watching some (outdated) videos online. However, I don't see my Throwsin hitting the level of insanity I keep seeing (especially all those explosions and whatnot). Ergo, I decided to plan for the future.

One of my favorite skills before in vanilla were Open Wounds and Crushing Blow. I scoured the documentation and saw Splinter Mail and The Gauntlet, which grants 100% and 50% OW respectively. For CB, I still haven't seen a viable candidate. I was wondering, are those two items viable for endgame? Do OW and CB even work with Maelstrom? I'm planning on getting the Dead Star runeword as well, if I am able to farm those runes in the first place. Also, I still don't have a clear grasp on what CtCs are best. So far, I've only been working with some quickly-hacked-together runed/jeweled/gemmed items. I'm already feeling it failing me in Act 4/5 (kill rate is going way down), which makes me consider respeccing before hitting Terror. So far, the only Uber I've survived is Thran Athulua's lvl50, and man that frayed some good nerves.

TLDR, the approach I'm envisioning is something like follows:
- SMax Maelstrom, maybe Wychwind in backup
- SMax Queen of Blades + SMax Perfect Being for avoid+damage
- Dead Star, Splinter Mail, The Gauntlet for OW (no idea what is good until level 100 though)
- ??? for CB, if still needed
- ??? for good CtC on attack/striking/kill

The logic of above is keeping all enemies on the bleeding edge as much as possible, with poison being used for some good damage over time while running around and generally avoiding getting hurt.

Sorry if my post is all over the place. I've tried milking the documentation for what it's worth, but it's excellence only goes so far as what idea can be taken from it, which I don't really have except for the above. A quick pro and con of the above and a quick review whether it can survive future ubers will be greatly appreciated.

Also, used the Skillpoint Planner and came up with the following:

Skillplan End of Hatred (Assassin, Ultimative XIII)

Thank you very much and all the best.


Last edited by Nanashi on Thu May 15, 2014 6:22 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Made topic title more relevant.)

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Re: ThrowSin: Wychwind/Maelstrom Builds

Post by Asteroth on Tue May 13, 2014 5:06 pm

All WDM (weapon damage mod) skills like maelstrom/wychwind proc CB/OW.
I wouldn't worry about OW too much at your stage. You need 100% for certain ubers that you purify, but that's end game (and you get butcher's tooth charm by then, which gives like 50% OW).
CB on the other hand is always useful. If you check out some guides by Stoya, he loves to get 100% CB for builds. As a throw sin, you proc damage everywhere very fast, which means with high CB you're always melting monsters' lives.
However CB is a bit tricky to accumulate, so you may need to use MOs or perfect rainbow stones in your weapon.
Skill plan looks good, just dont forget to get Way of Phoenix and there's no need to sMax Wychwind.

Tell us a bit about your gear. Either way, early on, i'd choose some of the following gear (just personal advice/preference).
You want to get on Striking procs such as:
Albrecht's Revenge (Chain Mail):
10% CtC lvl 1 Arrow on Striking
Adds (401 to 800)-(801 to 1600) cold damage

Ironsleet (Balanced Knife):
10% CtC lvl 13 Knife Throw on Striking

I prefer getting items with elemental damage as well. Tier 6 heavy gloves for cold damge for example (featherclaw, chain gloves, are also a great choice).
TU Split Mail is solid as well (tri elemental damage, DR, and good proc)

Also make sure to wear Deadfall (Heavy Belt) for the awesome proc, strength bonus, and CB.

For helm, you could try the Lily Runeword, which gives life on striking (which is, again, great for a char like throw sin that has her skill proc everywhere)

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Re: ThrowSin: Wychwind/Maelstrom Builds

Post by arcology on Tue May 13, 2014 5:15 pm

Asteroth pretty much covers it, although don't suggest 100% CB, it is basically impossible as sin. It is a valuable stat to have for sure though. OW damage is tiny, it is only used for purify boss and preventing enemy heal.
Throwsin strikes many times, so you are looking for striking procs, later game this can mean tracker knife/set, piranha swarm, dead star or rare/craft knife.

I suggest only 1 point in way of the spider and wychwind, and not too many in queen of blades, 10 targets is usually great. You definitely want max way of the phoenix and later way of the gryphon for elemental damage, and get - enemy fire and lightning resist on gear.

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Re: ThrowSin: Wychwind/Maelstrom Builds

Post by Nanashi on Tue May 13, 2014 5:28 pm

Hello, Asteroth! Thanks for the reply!

I am at work right now (lol) so I can't rightly give you a complete list of my items. Seem to remember to be using Gul on my armor, the Cathedral one, but I remember swapping it out for some unique I found in Act 5. All other items are mostly superior or rare items. I haven't had much luck getting uniques, really. And I can't farm Kurast just yet (I always die before I reach just one tower).

Partly, I feel like I dived too fast into the mod. Anyway, thanks for the advice on OW. So it's an endgame mechanic, apparently. So that's a good target. For CB, I checked and a perfect rainbow stone adds 5%. That means max 10%, if ever I get a good two-slot unique. Ironsleet seems awfully nice, and Albrecht's revenge is perfect as well. Clearly, I should be looking at TUs instead of Sacreds. By TU Splint Mail, do you mean Jitan's Kamon?

For the Wychwind, why no need to sMax it? I think the lower vulnerability duration is good, is it not? Or am I missing something? Way of the Phoenix will be added to build -- never hurts to have more elemental damage. Thanks for that.

Gah, seems like I have to do a complete rebuild from lvl1. I think I ran this one too fast. :/ Thanks for the insights.

===

@arcology Sorry, didn't see your message while writing this.

Yeah, 10% on 2 perfect Rainbow Stones seems a bit low, especially since I think max on T. Knives is 2 slots, right? But it seems like 10% is pretty high considering I'll be striking enemies a lot. Possibly going to try to create an Honorific so I can test how far I can go with a x% CB T. Knife.

Is it alright if you expound on why Way of Spider should only be one point? Just curious as to why. Smile

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Re: ThrowSin: Wychwind/Maelstrom Builds

Post by Asteroth on Tue May 13, 2014 5:59 pm

@Nanashi wrote:Hello, Asteroth! Thanks for the reply!

I am at work right now (lol) so I can't rightly give you a complete list of my items. Seem to remember to be using Gul on my armor, the Cathedral one, but I remember swapping it out for some unique I found in Act 5. All other items are mostly superior or rare items. I haven't had much luck getting uniques, really. And I can't farm Kurast just yet (I always die before I reach just one tower).

Partly, I feel like I dived too fast into the mod. Anyway, thanks for the advice on OW. So it's an endgame mechanic, apparently. So that's a good target. For CB, I checked and a perfect rainbow stone adds 5%. That means max 10%, if ever I get a good two-slot unique. Ironsleet seems awfully nice, and Albrecht's revenge is perfect as well. Clearly, I should be looking at TUs instead of Sacreds. By TU Splint Mail, do you mean Jitan's Kamon?

For the Wychwind, why no need to sMax it? I think the lower vulnerability duration is good, is it not? Or am I missing something? Way of the Phoenix will be added to build -- never hurts to have more elemental damage. Thanks for that.

Gah, seems like I have to do a complete rebuild from lvl1. I think I ran this one too fast. :/ Thanks for the insights.

===

@arcology Sorry, didn't see your message while writing this.

Yeah, 10% on 2 perfect Rainbow Stones seems a bit low, especially since I think max on T. Knives is 2 slots, right? But it seems like 10% is pretty high considering I'll be striking enemies a lot. Possibly going to try to create an Honorific so I can test how far I can go with a x% CB T. Knife.

Is it alright if you expound on why Way of Spider should only be one point? Just curious as to why. Smile

I'm at work too Wink
CB comes on many pieces of equipment. If you have double MO (luck trial) on a weapon, with 15 CB MOs, you can reach 30% CB. Then 10% from Deadfall, and 10% from gems and bam, you're at 50%. Then you would hypothetically need CB on other pieces of gear, but that's all speculation.

You can farm for arcane shards (mephisto, nilhathak, tran athulua) by disenchanting uniques (catalyst of disenchantment from vendor). You can subsequently use arcane crystals (5x shards) to make whatever uniques you want (Tiered only of course).
TUs are NOT always better than SUs, but certain ones have effects that make them stand out even in late game for certain builds. Albrecht's is great for throwsins and bowzons and even traprats for example. and yes, i referred to Jitan's Kamon. That item is a crowd favorite as well.

Reducing Wychwind DR duration is great on principle, but at end game, you will discover you will need skill points elsewhere. There's too many great skills that truly add to your arsenal (Blink, vampiric icon, psychic scream, QoB, Doom, perfect being, Ways, etc), and i don't think Wychwind is a skill that warrants more than 1 pt. With that said, Wychwind is possibly one of the strongest skills in the game (Marco will say the strongest), with even 1 pt (it hits 25/sec, and each WW can stack under each other).

Potion of absolution (vendor) + rune = potion that resets skills/stat points.
No need to restart.

I personally don't like poison on throwsins, or any character really (save for the barb since snake stance adds a LOT of slow). The points into Way of Spider could be better off in Way of Gryphon when you're 90+


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Re: ThrowSin: Wychwind/Maelstrom Builds

Post by arcology on Tue May 13, 2014 6:00 pm

Well, you can get a decent amount of CB cheaply, and is recommended, 2 rainbow +15 crushing blow MO on weap + deadfall + epicenter RW boots is ~42% CB at your level. Honorific knife can get you another 15% but you'd lose the striking proc so I wouldn't.
Throwsin relies on hitting a large number of times but only one poison effect can be active on an enemy (from 1 knife), it gains no benefit from multihit. WotS does gain a little value if you use deadfall since shower of rocks does 3/2 damage, but still pretty weak.

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Re: ThrowSin: Wychwind/Maelstrom Builds

Post by Nanashi on Tue May 13, 2014 6:33 pm

@Asteroth wrote:
I'm at work too Wink
CB comes on many pieces of equipment. If you have double MO (luck trial) on a weapon, with 15 CB MOs, you can reach 30% CB. Then 10% from Deadfall, and 10% from gems and bam, you're at 50%. Then you would hypothetically need CB on other pieces of gear, but that's all speculation.

We're being productive on the not-so-rat-race front, lol. Deadfall is very nice, I will add that to my list. Definitely will try rolling for that. I will try the luck trial as well. Read the documentation and apparently it's easy to know if weapon is viable or not (it's based on item creation, so if it doesn't work, just roll again).

@Asteroth wrote:
You can farm for arcane shards (mephisto, nilhathak, tran athulua) by disenchanting uniques (catalyst of disenchantment from vendor). You can subsequently use arcane crystals (5x shards) to make whatever uniques you want (Tiered only of course).
TUs are NOT always better than SUs, but certain ones have effects that make them stand out even in late game for certain builds. Albrecht's is great for throwsins and bowzons and even traprats for example. and yes, i referred to Jitan's Kamon. That item is a crowd favorite as well.

Pretty afraid to try the disenchanting uniques process mainly because of old D2 habits. Uniques were pretty much a godsend until powerful rares started spawning, so maybe I'm just being a classic vanilla hoarder here. What I meant re: TUs is that I've been concentrating looking at Sacreds when I can make do with upgrading/farming for TUs first. Clearly, bad habit of overlooking the now for the possible never.

Anyway, seems like I personally like Albrecht more, but Jitan's elemental damages plus that on-kill thingie, wow. Sounds really awesome. Putting both into current build.

@Asteroth wrote:
Reducing Wychwind DR duration is great on principle, but at end game, you will discover you will need skill points elsewhere. There's too many great skills that truly add to your arsenal (Blink, vampiric icon, psychic scream, QoB, Doom, perfect being, Ways, etc), and i don't think Wychwind is a skill that warrants more than 1 pt. With that said, Wychwind is possibly one of the strongest skills in the game (Marco will say the strongest), with even 1 pt (it hits 25/sec, and each WW can stack under each other).

Noted. Didn't realize Wychwind was *that* strong, but if it doesn't fit to the general feel of the character, I won't force it. Though I've read in one of the threads that WW is perfect for bosses.

@Asteroth wrote:
Potion of absolution (vendor) + rune = potion that resets skills/stat points.
No need to restart.
I personally don't like poison on throwsins, or any character really (save for the barb since snake stance adds a LOT of slow). The points into Way of Spider could be better off in Way of Gryphon when you're 90+

The potion of absolution doesn't work in 1.12a, does it? Anyway, will use the Offline Tool, if that's legal here. Neutral Probably will reset because I've been messy, and I think with a couple of levels from 60, I don't think I can farm enough to remain just under 60 and have a second run at Tran Athulua. Will see what I can do here though.

Thanks a lot, Asteroth!

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Re: ThrowSin: Wychwind/Maelstrom Builds

Post by Nanashi on Tue May 13, 2014 6:37 pm

@arcology wrote:Well, you can get a decent amount of CB cheaply, and is recommended, 2 rainbow +15 crushing blow MO on weap + deadfall + epicenter RW boots is ~42% CB at your level. Honorific knife can get you another 15% but you'd lose the striking proc so I wouldn't.

Yeah, realized after my post that I'd lose the striking proc, which is what I wanted in the first place along with OW/CB. Lol. This plus the lucky trial brings me past 50%, which is a good nice amount. Thanks for the epicenter. Didn't realize such a good RW on boots exists at a very low level.

@arcology wrote:
Throwsin relies on hitting a large number of times but only one poison effect can be active on an enemy (from 1 knife), it gains no benefit from multihit. WotS does gain a little value if you use deadfall since shower of rocks does 3/2 damage, but still pretty weak.

Noted. So basically, poison duration stacks, poison damage is whichever's highest DPS, but poison instance is only one. Is this right? Smile

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Re: ThrowSin: Wychwind/Maelstrom Builds

Post by Asteroth on Tue May 13, 2014 8:03 pm

I'm not 100% sure on poison mechanics (you should check out LFAQ thread for that). But to elaborate on my distaste for poison:
Throwsins are in general, glass cannons. In this case, DMDDD applies (Dead Monsters Dont Do Damage) best. Therefore you want to burst everything down as fast as possible (with skills like Blink for stun/position, vampiric icon and life on striking for sustain, psychic scream for safety, etc). Poison can do a lot of damage, but over time. I prefer all other elements because they are instant hit.
Furthermore, as Arcology points out, poison doesn't take advantage of the multihitting aspect of the throwsin. Once you poison a monster, you don't double/triple/whatever the poison damage with each new hit. You just refresh the duration of the poison.
Whereas with fire/light/cold, the damage is applied each multihit.

As for Wychwind, as you play you will get a good feel for when to use it. I love to throw it at large, very high hit point enemies and bosses. If you're comfortable, you could also blink into groups of normal monsters to stun them and let WW do more damage. But again, you will develop a good feel for it. It's also fantastic for unleashing all your procs on striking.


Offline tool is fine to use. They aren't hero editors, they just let you lower levels, reset skills/character points/whatever.

Also, I remember your position with saving all the goodies you find xD
Being a hardcore LoD player, i did the same with median XL at first. In fact, it got worse when i went to Terror difficulty and runes started dropping like flies.
I was all "OMG ANOTHER ZOD YES!!" or "SWEET ANOTHER PUL!"

Then you learn to realize how common those things are and not to worry about hoarding everything.
Salvage the uniques you find to get the ones you need. And when you're higher lvl, and at higher difficulties, you will easily be able to gather up all the cool stuff you see now.
EDIT: Don't forget to uptier your current uniques as well (Arcane crystal + Rune) as much as you can (str/dex requirements considered of course)

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Re: ThrowSin: Wychwind/Maelstrom Builds

Post by Sexen on Wed May 14, 2014 3:59 am

There are a lot of different views on poison damage. I always max wots and all the other ways for that matter. Poison damage is one of the best damage types vs heroic shields and most enemies die with only one hit. You lose points in blink or QoB due to perfect being being a necessary smaxed skill but its worth it. I've never used psychic scream and rarely vampiric icon because lots of knives gives lots of leeching opportunities, and blink is teleport stun for "safety".

A glass cannon using defensive skills and instant offensive damage rather than massive damage albeit over a short delay confuses me. You still get your instant damage with a nice lasting effect.

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