POE vs Diablo III

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Re: POE vs Diablo III

Post by MarcoNecroX on Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:49 am

WHY DO THEY PLAY HC IF THEY DONT LIKE BEING RIPPED OFF FROM LAG?
WHY DO THEY PLAY HC IF THEY ARE NOT FOCUSED ENOUGH NOT TO MISCLICK?
WHY DO THEY PLAY HC IF THEY DONT LIKE TO DIE AND LOSE THE PROGRESS?
WHY DO THEY PLAY HC IF THEY DO NOT ACCEPT THE POSSIBLE-INEVITABLE OUTCOMES?
Thrill you say? Where's the thrill in not losing anything? Thrill of being switched from a ladder to another?

I don't even...  Hitting a Wall 

Using a softcore mentality to attemp to "design" HC aspects of a game is just a fail. You have a SC mentality. That does NOT make you a bad person whatsoever - but you have to admit it - and same goes for archon. Being able to understand the true spirit of HC is only achieved by playing HC, and it requires you to dedicate a lot of time into the game to succeed. Changing HC mode without understanding it (pointing at PoE) is just wrong. HC is 100% optional and should not have different aspects compared to SC besides the die once factor. If these conditions are not met - just do not call it hardcore. Call it survival or whatever. Because the HC concept is very simple - play the game in a hardcore way just for the SAKE OF IT, and not for a reward whatsoever.


You want to be a casual? You want to watch TV while playing? You want to keep your progress? You want to have access to all the game features? PLAY SOFTCORE. Why the hell do you want to play HC? "thrill"? when after dying you're essentially losing nothing? You want to see how far you get without dying? Make a SC character and whenever you die take a selfie and post it on facebook so everyone knows. But do not fucking ruin HC.  Evil or Very Mad 

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Re: POE vs Diablo III

Post by Borgin on Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:09 am

@MarcoNecroX wrote:WHY DO THEY PLAY HC IF THEY DONT LIKE BEING RIPPED OFF FROM LAG?
WHY DO THEY PLAY HC IF THEY ARE NOT FOCUSED ENOUGH NOT TO MISCLICK?
WHY DO THEY PLAY HC IF THEY DONT LIKE TO DIE AND LOSE THE PROGRESS?
WHY DO THEY PLAY HC IF THEY DO NOT ACCEPT THE POSSIBLE-INEVITABLE OUTCOMES?
Because they enjoy it.

@MarcoNecroX wrote:Thrill you say? Where's the thrill in not losing anything? Thrill of being switched from a ladder to another?
It's still thrilling. Dying still has the penalty of being shoved into the most boring ladder where all your items are worthless.

@MarcoNecroX wrote:Using a softcore mentality to attemp to "design" HC aspects of a game is just a fail. You have a SC mentality. That does NOT make you a bad person whatsoever - but you have to admit it - and same goes for archon. Being able to understand the true spirit of HC is only achieved by playing HC, and it requires you to dedicate a lot of time into the game to succeed. Changing HC mode without understanding it (pointing at PoE) is just wrong. HC is 100% optional and should not have different aspects compared to SC besides the die once factor. If these conditions are not met - just do not call it hardcore. Call it survival or whatever. Because the HC concept is very simple - play the game in a hardcore way just for the SAKE OF IT, and not for a reward whatsoever.
I agree that HC should be played for its own sake, and not for a reward, but I would argue that there isn't a reward in Path's HC system- just the removal of a penalty, if that makes sense.

Plus, why does the semantics of it matter? If D2's HC was called "survival", you'd be making the exact opposite argument for its name. Razz

@MarcoNecroX wrote:You want to be a casual? You want to watch TV while playing? You want to keep your progress? You want to have access to all the game features? PLAY SOFTCORE. Why the hell do you want to play HC? "thrill"? when after dying you're essentially losing nothing? You want to see how far you get without dying? Make a SC character and whenever you die take a selfie and post it on facebook so everyone knows. But do not fucking ruin HC.  Evil or Very Mad 
In D2, I'll agree with your first point. I have never, and will never, play a D2 HC character. However, in Path, there are a number of reasons even a casual player would want to try hardcore out, besides just for the fun of it. In fact, without playing HC, players can't enjoy all the game's features! Many races and events, for example, are run in hardcore or cutthroat leagues, for example. Also, each league- including hardcore ones- have their own special itemtypes (and corresponding uniques) that do not drop in other leagues (and as such, can be very valuable when found and the character is migrated to another league). Slightly less relevant, each league has their own challenges that function much like XBox achievements; naturally, the hardcore challenges can only be completed in hardcore. Because of these modifications to HC as compared to SC (where in D2, the only differences was "in HC you die permanently"), many players want to try their hand at HC characters who may otherwise be "SC only" players (like myself). These changes to each different league increases the longevity of the game per player, meaning more $$$ in the devs' pockets, which is ultimately the point. Razz

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Re: POE vs Diablo III

Post by archon256 on Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:29 am

Marco you are completely missing the point.

Let me explain it this way. Imagine there's a club where all the rich people gather. You need to pay a hefty fee to enter it, and once you enter it you can play a bunch of gambling games with others in there. If you lose more than a certain number of games, you get kicked out and have to leave with no money. This is what Diablo 2 did with its hardcore mode.

What PoE has done is to introduce a second club alongside the first one. It's not as prestigious, none of the local celebrities visit it, but it serves as a place where you can take your winnings from the first club and continue playing. Or if you're daring enough you can pay the entrance fee to the first club again and go back in there. The net result is that a lot more casual players (who would normally never bother to enter the high rollers club) are inclined to give the rich club a shot.

It's been incredibly successful, and you can see a lot of players saying on the forums that they decided to play HC because of this even though they never played it before in D2.

The casual players see it as a plus, they can give HC a shot knowing that even if they fail they can always continue in SC. And it works for the 'true' HC crowd too, because for them dying hurts incredibly. It means they cant party up with any of their other friends anymore, they can't get to the top of the ladder, they have to deal with the worse economy in SC, etc. Lots of reasons for the real hardcore players to delete their chars and start over again.

It's crazy that you're calling the ones who delete their chars after one death posers. I really don't get the logic in that, lol.
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Re: POE vs Diablo III

Post by MarcoNecroX on Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:06 am

@Borgin: I got tricked. PoE doesn't have Hardcore. They have something with the same name but completely different. What a shame, I feel D2 deserves enough respect from them not to use that word in almost the exact fashion but such different mechanisms - ask any D2 HC fanatic and they'll probably find it wrong.

@archon: to me HC is something extremely simple to explain. Unrewarding (content-wise) - thrilling - optional. This is not what PoE decided to call it. Then again - I am not against any kind of mode they want to add. I'm just against comparing it to what D2 defined as HC. I would see no reason to find a connection between the players who play D2 HC and PoE HC, because they are 2 different things.

It's been incredibly successful, and you can see a lot of players saying on the forums that they decided to play HC because of this even though they never played it before in D2.

Well well... it's like saying SC is incredibly successful, because all what PoE seems to be doing is a false emulation of D2 HC, and tricking players into believing they are on a badass thrilling adventure - when they are actually playing softcore and getting ladder-switched upon first death, something quite insignificant to D2's HC mechanism in my point of view. To me it looks like more bullcrap like D3, where they removed inferno difficulty, and added Torment followed by up to 6 difficulties in roman numbers (OMAGHAD SOUNDS SO BADSS) on top of 4 easy-as-shit difficulties, just to give players that fake thrill/difficulty feeling on a game that is actually easy as shit.

I do not need to mention how I find current companies approach games. I find it extremely needy and pathetic. I'm modding a friggin 15 year old game for free and I wouldn't lower my standards. I feel like any player who sticks to MXL is smart and truly understands the joy of playing computer games. And whenever I try to increase the playerbase, I aim to the same audience. Players that love the game. Just take a look at D3, which is incredibly popular yet 99% of the people say the game is complete shit.

The casual players see it as a plus, they can give HC a shot knowing that even if they fail they can always continue in SC. And it works for the 'true' HC crowd too, because for them dying hurts incredibly. It means they cant party up with any of their other friends anymore, they can't get to the top of the ladder, they have to deal with the worse economy in SC, etc. Lots of reasons for the real hardcore players to delete their chars and start over again.

A casual player isn't supposed to play HC. At least in a game where there's supposedly a bit of challenge (not D3). They can give HC a shot regardless of anything - they should die pretty early (unless its D3 where you don't die) and decide if they want to make a second character.

It's crazy that you're calling the ones who delete their chars after one death posers. I really don't get the logic in that, lol.

Quite the opposite. I'm calling those who don't delete their characters, posers. Because they decided to play HC but did not accept the consequences of doing so - and kept playing their characters afterwards. That's why I feel that PoE HC is just not what we call HC in this forum.

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Re: POE vs Diablo III

Post by archon256 on Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:28 am

@MarcoNecroX wrote:Quite the opposite. I'm calling those who don't delete their characters, posers. Because they decided to play HC but did not accept the consequences of doing so - and kept playing their characters afterwards. That's why I feel that PoE HC is just not what we call HC in this forum.
Oh okay, that makes more sense.
What about the ones who do delete every single char that dies? Would they not be playing HC? I linked a page earlier that shows the PoE ladder, there are many level 100 chars on there. That's several hundreds of hours playing without a single death in the most difficult areas to get to max level.

@MarcoNecroX wrote:
A casual player isn't supposed to play HC. At least in a game where there's supposedly a bit of challenge (not D3). They can give HC a shot regardless of anything - they should die pretty early (unless its D3 where you don't die) and decide if they want to make a second character.
Except what this system is doing is actively converting casual players into hardcore players. You say 'They can give HC a shot regardless of anything' but the more reasons for them to try it out the better. And this is a very good reason for them to do so, and has worked out very well.  Also I'm only considering the ones who switch to the 'delete-after-first-death' ones, i.e. the ones who only play in the hardcore leagues.

Edit:
I think I see the problem now. You must be comparing the 'delete after first death' behavior to people who say "I play D2 in SC SP mode, but I delete my char after first death!". These are obviously posers, because there is no proof that what they're doing is true HC. For all we know they're using chicken hacks to the max and not actually deleting their chars. This is very different from PoE HC. In PoE when you die you're immediately marked as someone who has died, because you are no longer in the same league with all the other 'badasses' and drop to the league of 'losers' instead.

It's like... if you died in MXL SC and there was an aura permanently added to your chara that showed it. Now if a level 120 player joins your game and he doesn't have the aura on him, will you call him a poser? Isn't the fact that he got to 120 without dying even once worthy of respect?
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Re: POE vs Diablo III

Post by iwansquall on Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:49 am

Sry to interrupt, arent there are type of HC player that play with friends that can "saved" gears from lost permanently?

So, what kind of HC will you called them then?


*Back to being devoured by void,AFF (away from forum)*
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Re: POE vs Diablo III

Post by zerger on Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:18 am

@Will wrote:Zerger point 1 is not correct... .

I let you ask Laz about this point Wink

It has been confirmed many times on the old forum. There were some people playing in HC, but that doesn't mean the mod was balanced for HC

######

And I agree with Iwansquall, true hardcore modes are the one you find in roguelike games. When you are dead, you lost everything, there is no shared stash to back up your best items.
That's why HC in D3 is not really different from SC. HC should give to the players the challenge of reaching max level... but in D3, reaching lvl70 is just a matter of mandatory dumb hours of boring fights (if you don't have friends to pro-level you). And with lvl70 gems usable in lower items, this is even more stupid.

As for Poe HC, there is at least a choice offered to the player: keep playing in SC or really restart a char. If there weren't those season's leagues, creating a char in SC would be pointless
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Re: POE vs Diablo III

Post by radament on Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:40 pm

Played D3 and PoE , none of them satisfied me as hack&slash.
D3 is the shit for casuals who want to play time to time (now with the new patch it's easier than before) , yes you can try T6 naked but let Athene doing it cuz he's pro.
oh and random disconnects are awesome.
PoE in term of difficulty is much better , desync ruins the game for me , you can't pretend to do HC with such bullshit but i tried a lot of times as an idiot and obviously i died many times cause of it. if you pick a spellcaster things are better and if you die you are the dumb one Smile
Didn't like the loot , you can't really loot very good uniques , they are all crafted and i don't like this , i play for the loot and i want loot , i don't want to be a trader or a crafter. skills are cool but i don't like the gems , i'm an old school skill tree based nerd and all this stuff is confusing even if you follow a guide.

that said , Grim Dawn seems going on the right path , not very difficult atm even in Veteran but it's ok.
skill system is a bit poor of customization , maybe after playing median all arpgs seems poor of customization and creativity.
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Re: POE vs Diablo III

Post by MarcoNecroX on Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:26 pm

What about the ones who do delete every single char that dies? Would they not be playing HC? I linked a page earlier that shows the PoE ladder, there are many level 100 chars on there. That's several hundreds of hours playing without a single death in the most difficult areas to get to max level.

Err no... because you're given the option. And that's why HC exists in D2 rather than just a delete button and a message saying "hey you, if you want to delete your character after your first death for funzies, do so!". I am pretty sure many players both in D2 and MXL have reached high level in softcore without dying and probably didn't realize it. It's not the same. HC is simply about "no return". It's what makes it fun. Then again, as I mentioned before, I don't see the thrill on a mode where you don't actually lose your character, despite it being called "HC".

Except what this system is doing is actively converting casual players into hardcore players. You say 'They can give HC a shot regardless of anything' but the more reasons for them to try it out the better. And this is a very good reason for them to do so, and has worked out very well.  Also I'm only considering the ones who switch to the 'delete-after-first-death' ones, i.e. the ones who only play in the hardcore leagues.

It is, because SC and HC are essentially the same in PoE. We could just allow infinite deaths in HC in D2 and many players would also convert into HC. The logic wouldn't apply for D2. Because you don't need to give SC players a reason to play HC, because there is no point in playing HC in a content point of view. And that's what makes HC so fun. And here's where borgin says that SC players should also get that "fun". And here's where I say that fun isn't defined by the word "HC", it's defined by how HC works - if you remove the mechanisms what's making it more "fun" than SC?

It's like... if you died in MXL SC and there was an aura permanently added to your chara that showed it. Now if a level 120 player joins your game and he doesn't have the aura on him, will you call him a poser? Isn't the fact that he got to 120 without dying even once worthy of respect?

Not exactly. HC isn't about just hitting 120 without dying; as I mentioned before, many people probably hit 120 without dying in SC without even realizing it. The point of HC is accepting the fact that you can loose it all in a blink of an eye, and with that pressure on, hit 120. Losing an aura as you suggest or a ladder rank is just e-penis bullshit if you ask me. Not actual stuff.


There are other aspects that I don't mention such as powerleveling, which I'm sure exists on PoE. In MXL, things such as tcowing are not a smart thing to do, in HC. In PoE, we could have a scenario where a player doesn't really give a shit about dying and he's playing HC 'just because'. Then he could powerlevel people as he's not afraid of losing his character. It's just an example of what happens when you remove the "hard" in the "core", which from what I see, is what PoE did. HC needs to be simple and strict.

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Re: POE vs Diablo III

Post by Marquise on Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:56 pm

So Mert did you stop playing POE ? I just cant stand the low drop rates.
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