What Will Most Likely be Troll Bait

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What Will Most Likely be Troll Bait

Post by Orgaya on Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:44 pm

Everything below will most likely result in having responses such as "U mad?" or "U jsut suk noob", or a clever combination of both whether they be on their own merit or out of "irony" because I just suggested them here.  

What I am suggesting is not that the mod is too difficult (although it is fairly difficult, which I appreciate, that's what I went in for), I'm saying that it lacks any sort of sense of finesse.  Or, and I really hate this term because of its increasing over-use in video games, balance.

Maybe it's because I played on players 8 the entire time, but I noticed that something was off when I hit level 120 before I even killed Baal in Terror.  This automatically meant that all of Destruction would be entirely gear-dependent.  Again, this isn't a problem since I realize that the mod is mostly about gear now, but one of the problems, I think, is that it's extremely difficult to find anything remotely useful.  I've read somewhere that crafting is the way to go (correct me if I'm wrong), so if the mod has taken that course instead of using SU or Sets like it was before then that's fine, I understand the difference between developers.

No, my major complaint actually comes in around Act 5.  Specifically once you reach the Frozen Tundra.  I get that the endgame is supposed to be difficult, but seriously?  Throwing in like five or more witches around the map has nothing to do with how good you are or how amazing your gear is.  It's a definite one shot kill, and it removed any hope of me being able to get my body back as a result.  I actually ran through the field naked just to get to where I needed to go, and then have friends clear the cavern out for me.  And this was only the beginning.  Because the rest was an onslaught of ridiculous amounts of poison (despite having 80 poison resistance) that lasted seemingly forever, the rather poorly redesigned Throne of Destruction (why the fuck would the Barbarians build something like that?) and, ugh... Baal.

I can get around all of the above because it was at least possible.  Baal, on the other hand, while not impossible, per se, turned into a different story.  I honestly laughed once it happened, staring at my death screen in befuddlement at possibly the biggest amount of bullshit I have ever seen in a game.  No other word came to mind other than "ocean".

It was at this point that I started to realize that Median no longer felt like a game.  It felt like a mod.  If this sounds stupid to you, I completely understand, because duh, it is a mod.  However, allow me to explain.  Forgive me if I sound like a purist (a very weird purist who prefers a mod over the original iteration, but I digress), but with the last patch that Brother Laz developed, at no point did I feel like anything was outside of my skillset.  Oh yes, it was stupid and hard, and there were things that I couldn't even comprehend doing, but I knew all I had to do was get better.  And getting better by simply playing the game was possible and within my reach.  Everything about it felt smooth and balanced (that word again).

But with Ultimative, the seams are starting to show.  It feels more like an attempt at reigniting the spark that Median originally had, but instead focuses on certain aspects that only worked in the original because it had an underlying purpose to each encounter and overall gameplay.  Ultimative just sort of feels thrown together.  I'm not trying to knock on it, as there are many aspects of Ultimative I thought were an extreme improvement (being able to combine Arcane Shards and give my merc some boots are wet dreams in it of themselves).  It just seems less precise than its predecessor.

With all of this I probably sound like a "filthy, retched casual", especially since most of the people who play this mod play this with a lot of patience and expertise, and most likely find this to be without any sort of challenge at all.  And maybe it does point in that direction for me.  I chose to be a Summoning Necromancer, using the Satanic Mantra set with the Aiwass gloves and obviously some rings and an amulet.  Obviously now it doesn't hold any merit (although Toraja was surprisingly very easy).  However, it seems as if the mod favors specific classes (Kabraxis is a good example.  Although in my opinion that uber is poorly designed.  I'm not a coder, but it's impossible for me to complete; not because it's too hard, but because the summons exceed the game's sprite count and it crashes), and it ultimately relies on you knowing how to put one of these specific builds together with a lot of studying and a lot of time.  If the mod's intention now is to dedicate more than half of one's play time to reading charts with the other half endlessly farming an uber, forgive me for not seeing the point then.

On that note, it might be prudent to remove the answer in the FAQ section that states, "Choose whatever class is your favorite."  Because this is obviously no longer applicable.

Anyway.  You may now proceed to tell me that I am a noob.

tl;dr: THIS MOD IS TOO HAAAAARRRRD WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

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Re: What Will Most Likely be Troll Bait

Post by MasterRiven on Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:53 pm

Some classes are better than others at ubers, that is just a given - there is so many different combinations of skills/builds that work that there will always be some that are stronger - and there are some builds that are really strong at lots of ubers. Alas. Pretty much any build can work to a certain degree.

If you have trouble with witches...lolnoob. You have a pair of eyes, and a pair of ears, using one or the other will save you from getting pounced on.

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Re: What Will Most Likely be Troll Bait

Post by archon256 on Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:59 pm

Alright, let me see if I can answer without resorting to the usual rubbish.

I noticed that something was off when I hit level 120 before I even killed Baal in Terror.
This was a deliberate change that BrotherLaz made when it was announced that Diablo 3 would have a fourth difficulty level (Inferno). Laz really liked the idea of a "flat" difficulty level where all the monsters in every act are the same level and wanted to implement it in Median.
I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea, it makes Destruction very different from Terror, and is more a way of making the earlier acts harder than making everything hard.

Throwing in like five or more witches around the map has nothing to do with how good you are or how amazing your gear is.
Witches have always been a test of reflexes, not gear or skill choice. If you move fast enough you can run away from a Witch before she jumps on you (especially if you listen for her laugh), or you can play slowly and carefully enough that you don't run into one of them.
They're really only focused in one area (which even has a waypoint), so it's not a big deal IMO.  


I can get around all of the above because it was at least possible.  Baal, on the other hand, while not impossible, per se, turned into a different story.  I honestly laughed once it happened, staring at my death screen in befuddlement at possibly the biggest amount of bullshit I have ever seen in a game.  No other word came to mind other than "ocean".
Baal in Destruction is meant to be an optional boss (since you don't need to kill him to progress further, aside from being able to access the Cow Level). As such this gave the mod makers an opportunity to make him incredibly difficult. It's not something that every build is expected to do (and definitely not when you haven't even done the easy ubers), but something that you aim for when your build has progressed significantly in terms of power.


But with Ultimative, the seams are starting to show.  It feels more like an attempt at reigniting the spark that Median originally had, but instead focuses on certain aspects that only worked in the original because it had an underlying purpose to each encounter and overall gameplay.  Ultimative just sort of feels thrown together.  I'm not trying to knock on it, as there are many aspects of Ultimative I thought were an extreme improvement (being able to combine Arcane Shards and give my merc some boots are wet dreams in it of themselves).  It just seems less precise than its predecessor.
I don't think any of the things you've mentioned so far are new to Ultimative. If you can be more specific maybe I can help.


On that note, it might be prudent to remove the answer in the FAQ section that states, "Choose whatever class is your favorite."  Because this is obviously no longer applicable.
I don't think that's the case. Do you need help with your build?

Edit: Here's a telling quote
(although Toraja was surprisingly very easy)
Would it surprise you if I said Toraja isn't easy for a lot of builds? The build you chose happens to be really good at it, and bad at others. The same is true for many others. Sure there are builds that are better at more ubers than the rest, but that's the nature of the game.

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Re: What Will Most Likely be Troll Bait

Post by void on Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:19 am

@Orgaya wrote:What I am suggesting is not that the mod is too difficult (although it is fairly difficult, which I appreciate, that's what I went in for), I'm saying that it lacks any sort of sense of finesse.  Or, and I really hate this term because of its increasing over-use in video games, balance.
[...]
tl;dr: THIS MOD IS TOO HAAAAARRRRD WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Why do you contradict yourself at the end? Thinking (Please don't discuss it; it's okay. Just change the text if you think that I misunderstood you)

The Tundra is a gamble for me, actually. I just run through it, and in case I get hit by a witch, I try again. There are better ways (like summoning monsters to scout for them), but I figured running through works best for me.

You can always find new ways to get things done. If you expect to jump right in and win, you won't. That's normal. The big difference between the veterans and the newbies is that the veterans played the game for a long time and didn't give up after getting frustrated with the game.

Of course, with the complexity that this mod offers, it becomes increasingly difficult to balance every uber for every build or class. Unless you make everything a kill-the-mob-no-penalty fest, which would be boring. Bouncing 

I didn't see any question marks in your post, so that's just my two cents. I hope you don't get discouraged because some builds don't work as well as others. People are generally helpful on this forum, so if you ask nicely you will probably get help with what you are stuggling with. See ya

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Re: What Will Most Likely be Troll Bait

Post by Orgaya on Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:30 am

Concerning the difficulty, I understand this and it is an appealing idea, which leads into me saying that this wasn't a complaint, it was just when I began to notice that things were different.

Concerning the witches, no, them all being in one area isn't a huge deal.  Again, this was mostly a specific example to explain my view on the design choices as a whole, not a complaint that's "OMG THIS ONE AREA IS UNFAIR THIS MOD IS DUMB".  In response to the two suggestions that all you have to do is move away from them, here is where I had a problem with this: specific to me being a necromancer, my only way of moving around and still being somewhat effective is by teleportation.  And in my case, teleporting means throwing a minion and warping to it.  All obstruction cancels this out for me.  So when I do see a Witch, I typically do teleport like mad from it, but because of the amount on that specific map, I usually just teleport straight into another Witch.  Or get stuck because of a tree.  This is a really, really petty argument I am making so for the sake of my integrity, I'll just leave it as a personal gripe that has no bearing on the mod itself.

Concerning Baal, this actually makes a lot more sense if it's optional.  Originally our (being my friends and me) plan was to complete the game first (all three difficulties) along with the Level Challenges, and then complete the ubers.  In retrospect, this was a poor decision, seeing how a lot of these charms would have come in handy.

Concerning the things that are new to Ultimative, I often switch back and forth between the last Laz patch and this one, and I've specifically noticed an increase in enemies per level and a significant decrease in decent item drops.  For example, farming K3K for sets didn't seem to wield anything different from just farming a random level in Destruction.  The highest MF I had at one point was 900, which I lowered to 500 later after reading that that was a dumb idea, but I barely noticed any difference.  Unless I am doing something wrong (and seeing that most people don't have these kinds of problems, that is probably the case here), this is why it occurred to me that maybe the focus isn't so much on finding items as it is on crafting them, or doing something I'm obviously not.  All of this plus the above examples I made created my viewpoint, and if this isn't justified then I'll concede that I'm just a whiney noob.

And concerning if I need help with my build... not exactly.  I'm sure there is a much better and more efficient design than what I am going for, but it seems like it relies solely on numbers.  Which is a petulant standpoint to have, I know.  What I would like, however, is to know how people manage to find SU's and Sets and other high quality items with ease.

And since the forum was so kind to let me know someone else posted, I will respond accordingly.

The contradiction was mostly a joke, because I realize what I said could be seen as complaining.

I've played Diablo II since it came out, and Median since that came out, and completed both versions.  I'm not going to say I'm an expert, because obviously from this I am not, I just wanted to make some points to see if they were justified or if I was biased given my circumstances.  I don't expect to win everything with ease and without actually trying.  I don't want that.  As I said, I play Median for its difficulty and refusal to pander to the mass audience.

For the ubers, yes, I agree that it makes sense that no single build should be able to easily take them all down.  That would be boring.  And it could just be that I am grumpy and some inner cynic in me is thinking that the mod was taken over by a group of secret cultists bent on shaping it to allow only for a specific set of builds.  Which is ridiculous.  And why I'd rather get input from the community than say nothing at all and sulk in a corner.

Thank you to everyone who did kindly offer differing viewpoints and explanations for why certain decisions were made.  It has been helpful.  I haven't been discouraged, just curious.

Edited for the Toraja edit: Yes, I realized your point when I mentioned this. I'm starting to see the point now. I've only ever just played one build, so in all fairness my points could mostly just be preemptive and biased. And it could be attributed to me just not being used to this update yet. (I still stand by my point about Kabraxis, though. If anyone can tell me there is a way around the gargantuan amounts of lag that comes from exceeding the sprite limit, I am all ears.)

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Re: What Will Most Likely be Troll Bait

Post by Sexen on Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:53 am

So who are you really? Your typing style looks vaguely familiar.

I agree with most of your points. The mod does not seem as polished as it once was. I have cried about "balancing" the already existing content, but it was to no avail. We will get a bunch more content because that is what the majority seems to enjoy. If the old content is too hard for someone, or they don't like a level design, it is basically oh well play the rest of the massive content and ignore the one that is bothering you. I am a completest that is why I have so many issues. I hate "ignoring" or "avoiding" anything. I must beat everything at least once. Gotta catch 'em all!

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Re: What Will Most Likely be Troll Bait

Post by Orgaya on Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:46 am

@Sexen wrote:So who are you really? Your typing style looks vaguely familiar.

I agree with most of your points. The mod does not seem as polished as it once was. I have cried about "balancing" the already existing content, but it was to no avail. We will get a bunch more content because that is what the majority seems to enjoy. If the old content is too hard for someone, or they don't like a level design, it is basically oh well play the rest of the massive content and ignore the one that is bothering you. I am a completest that is why I have so many issues. I hate "ignoring" or "avoiding" anything. I must beat everything at least once. Gotta catch 'em all!

I'm the poor sod you so generously helped out with the Satanic Mantra.  Which I thank you again, by the way.

This is mostly what I was pointing out, yes.  On one hand I can see where it would be appealing to have certain levels specific to certain builds, but on the other I feel like it seems too general in terms of rewards and design to allow for this kind of play.  There's a big "maybe" slapped on each of them if you want to try a build that probably won't suffice, in my opinion.  That and the endgame seems to differ for each character in terms of difficulty.

But on the whole, I am also of the mind that I need to complete everything as well.  I'm mostly getting the charms just to collect them, their affixes being a tertiary benefit.

Edit: I realize what that last sentence may sound like. No, I am not playing Median just to casually run around and pick things up, I realize I have to put effort into doing things. It's just the appeal for me is the above. A trophy for completing an obstacle, if you will.

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Re: What Will Most Likely be Troll Bait

Post by MarcoNecroX on Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:16 am

I would love to detailedly adress everything said in this topic, but I'll have to be rather quick or my pizza will get cold.
That said, I belive there is a lot to take into account but I think this topic releates to just more thing that might have nothing to do with something else:


1) "finesse" how you like to call it. There is a bit of everything but to resume it:

- times have changed, so did games and so did people. We could argue that windows XP theme looked pretty neat when it came out, compared to the creepy grey-ish GUI from w98 or 2000. Perspectives are different, and people have different expectations. In older times, people weren't so questionable about content because the relationship between companies and people was a lot less common. Just take a look to diablo 3, who would have thought 10 years ago that D3 would lead to their forum being an orchesta on how shitty the game is? And I do find the game to be a lot better than regular clod. But what I'm trying to point out is people tend to increase their standards, and well, MXL's resolution is still 800x600. I look at Median 2008 which was a dream back in the day and now I wouldn't ever play it again. TL;DR: lower your standards, time passes fast, if you have came this far, I'm pretty sure you as well as pretty much anyone on this forum would agree that MXL game is just top stuff compared to any other game we see right now, and it will most likely be that forever.

- modder has changed as well, and as the first thing here I need to mention that we are two different people. Laz has modded median/d2 for about 10 years, he is way more experienced than me, he had more time to polish everything, though I undoubtly think he is very talented. I myself started on a project that I would have never believed would come that far, I just did an attemp to not let MXL die and give MXL diehard fans have something to try out, it started off hidden in a "MXL modding forum" and with a way lower audience. A lot of content I did back in the day was just rushed because I unlike most people do believe "trying hard" is wrong, you just need to try and realise whether you are just good or bad at it. Afterwards I was modding more, until I cooled a bit and started taking it slower and improving my quality. A lot of content remains from the very first patches, which includes SSSU's and runewords (which used to have ridiculous names just a few months ago). That's not something you can fix from one day to the other, specially when your mindset changed as well, which means you not only have to redo something, but also redo it in a much longer period. I am working on all of these aspects, but it takes time. Coming back to what I said in the beggining, we are 2 different people. cMXL looks more polished in a sense because Laz was usually sticking to "what can be done". While I'm the sort of person that looks at "what cant be done" and tries to implement wicked complex stuff because I like innovation. I am not saying any of those personalities is better than the other, but I do believe there are people that prefer one and people that prefer the other. And I feel we already had enough of 'what can be done', hence why there is a project called sigma, which main new focus is the fact that it will be a hardcoded mod. Which means more resolution, it means uberquests in act 4, it means anything. Something unthought for MXL. And yes I do believe it can be a little controversial - specially since I am (a lot) more humanly connected to the forum, and thus, I'm a lot more questioned than the demigod Laz. And it's fine for me. Spark is gone? I do believe it's a lot bigger than basically... a 2,5 year old mod whose forums got lost in a black hole and where JEBs still didn't recover to do a Ladder Reset. Really, I do believe that ultimative is just more than the mod, it involves all the changes that happened in the last 2 years, and I like seeing it all as a whole package.

2) as for specific in-game stuff. I believe you would disagree with half if not all of what you've said just by playing more, and better. Because saying stuff like cMXL was about "getting better" when pretty much the entire content was really easy just by using certain gear combinations or characters feels just wrong. And this is something that used to be less 'known' before, but existed nevertheless. People these days know mechanics a lot more in depth and are able to bypass certain difficulties very easily because they got the knowledge to do so. This includes examples such as oneshotting Astrogha. In the current game, some endgame content assumes that you're the kind of person that would manage to do something like that. You can pretty much cheese anything you want. And I felt I had to take that into consideration when modding. And this lead to extremely complex endgame content that looks extremely masochist and 9001+ for someone like a casual player. Something like removing the exit from some areas like Icy Cellar are crucial for some of the balancing required for this. But a casual player would think - "why can't I exit? I can't think of a reason why I wouldn't be able to exit from here!". And I do believe MXL playerbase pretty much resumes to the people that are bad or to the people that are good. And while endgame content can provide satisfaction for the 'pros', it technically can do it for the 'noobs' too, just in a long term. But not the other way around. I still try to add early/mid game content for these people, but they have to understand that something "extreme" such as instagibs can also be part of the game. This said, I wouldn't point anything specifically, I'd just hope that you'd continue to play like any other player until you are good and enjoy the game.


Finally, I have finished my pizza after my first paragraph. It was great  Mr. Green's Weed 

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Re: What Will Most Likely be Troll Bait

Post by Ben- on Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:15 am

noob

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Re: What Will Most Likely be Troll Bait

Post by Will on Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:04 am

Ben originally I thought you wrote this piece... and wondered why...then I saw u were last reply Very Happy

Cookie to Benny... Archon's post too long, Marco's too thought provoking for tonight. 1 word reply's are fun.

As to OP: No probs with opinions ever in my book. But I don't get your point. Is it that the mod is too hard?

What are you trying to say??? I couldn't be more confused. This is why the greeks and arabic peoples did not have computers...

EDIT: Laz patches were FAR LESS than polished. This is just my opinion from playing just about every one from 1.99 except 1.a9

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