Dragonform discussion

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Dragonform discussion

Post by cowking on Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:00 pm

I've been sort of semi-playing around with this and every holy caster variation ends up being shit. Here's why.


GENERAL:

- Dragonform disables ranged oSkills. This con alone basically kills the entire build. Forget about poison procs. Forget about using other spells, what you see is what you get.

- Dragon Oath makes it a no brainer to focus on energy, leaving you with no real defensive solution. You can't attain huge amounts of defense. You can't attain large amount of life regen (due to lack of vitality), you can't attain max block. If you go max block or use the life regen route (as stupid as that is), you will have supermassive mana problems (ferrying mana tide totem with you is not realistic due to DA timer). Average defense, low-average life, no block, no avoid, no slow... no nothing.

- Lack of decent uberskill. Resurrect will only give you meatshields, as trap rats require SSU Angel Star to stay alive (and RC will fuck up your timer on Dragon Oath).

- Casting bloodlust from Shamanka will disable your morph, unlike superbeast. This is very annoying.


MERCENARY:

If you want painless morph upkeep, you will use DA to teleport to flames instead instead of annoy the shit out of yourself by running after the flames or enemies. Problem is, this will also turn your mercenary into a dragon, which means only Act 3 mercenaries are usable. Any other mercenary will turn into a useless meatshield because their abilities are unusable, and their attack speeds are shit. Forget about merc MotW, Bloodlust, 50% screenwide slow, retaliate, etc that you can use with superbeast.

Due to crappy spells and disabled oSkills, the only mercenary that makes any sense is A3 Abjurer, which is practically mandatory to make this char work in any shape or form (and he gains no use of his superbeast, since he'll be casting at 4fpa due to dragonform anyway). This is the only way to have a decent solution against FI. You're still gonna suck against neon fiends though. I haven't tested Hivemind + Klaatu, since I don't have Hivemind, but requiring those two to make this char have a decent solution against FI is borken.


SPELLS:

★ Dragon Oath ★

This spell suffers from horrible damage range. When you exceed damage cap on your max damage, min damage is trailing way behind.

Spoiler:

It's plainly obvious casting 30k cataclysm six times per second will always beat this.

★ Dragonshout ★

How fucking cool is this? Too bad it SUCKS Mad

- Damage range is horrible. If you don't want to risk going over damage cap, you end up with 40-80k magic damage.

Spoiler:

- Magic damage means you can't double the above mentioned damage. You're stuck with that.
- Fires 11 bolts at max, but has ND, meaning it can't multihit a single monster. Makes all that damage potential go down the drain.

All the above points make this skill only useful for stun. But even then, you have to spam it actively, meaning you're doing shit damage. This skill should have super tight damage range (80->80k), or removal of ND to make it useful.

★ Burnout ★

The only dragon spell worth casting. You can boost this as much as you like without going over damage cap, since damage is divided by 25. It's very easy to reach 50k damage per frame, leaving dragon oath, dragonshout, and demonrend useless.

Problem is you have no decent spell to kill FI. Derp King

★ Demonrend ★

... is crappy compared to slayer. here we have demonrend dealing 60-180k magic damage over ONE second. It's rate of fire sucks too.

Spoiler:

With same gear and less energy factor (since we lose Dragon Oath), slayer is dealing 30-55k damage. Multiply it by five and you're dealing 150k damage MINIMUM per volley, at much higher rate of fire.

Repeat. Slayers' minimum damage equals the upper range of demonrend, at higher rof. End result, both dragonshout and demonrend are horrible for dealing with FI problem.




tldr - this tree needs a buff, otherwise it falls way below every other caster in the game.

I would be surprised if anyone has made this work (without being a crappy version of any other caster).

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Re: Dragonform discussion

Post by Str0b3l on Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:18 pm

not mentioning that theres a patch around with unknown rework of overall skills

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Re: Dragonform discussion

Post by JohnWayne on Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:22 pm

honestly my exact same opinion. that tree is a joke.
compared to sorc...... DERP. compared to unholy caster.... derp.

i honestly dont understand why everything must be made SO difficult. i mean take a look at this tree compared to sorc - sorc gets (cold/light) insane def, 25%dr, avoid and best spells ingame. same goes for uh pally.

holy pally gets nothing so far, lionheart maybe.

hopefully this gets changed by marco Smile

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Re: Dragonform discussion

Post by cowking on Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:37 pm

@Str0b3l wrote:not mentioning that theres a patch around with unknown rework of overall skills

All the more reason to make it clear it needs a buff. It's been holy gimp for 3 patches now.

If marco considers current uldyssian to be "fine", it's within the realm of possibility that he considers current holy caster as "fine".

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Re: Dragonform discussion

Post by archon256 on Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:55 pm

If you want painless morph upkeep, you will use DA to teleport to flames instead instead of annoy the shit out of yourself by running after the flames or enemies. Problem is, this will also turn your mercenary into a dragon, which means only Act 3 mercenaries are usable. Any other mercenary will turn into a useless meatshield because their abilities are unusable, and their attack speeds are shit. Forget about merc MotW, Bloodlust, 50% screenwide slow, retaliate, etc that you can use with superbeast.
Dragon Oath is being reworked, AFAIK


It's plainly obvious casting 30k cataclysm six times per second will always beat [Dragon Oath].
Well yeah. It's not supposed to be a spammable skill, so every spammable one will beat it. But it should definitely be a strong burst damage skill. Perhaps change to multiple novas to bypass damage cap?

All the above points make [Dragon Shout] only useful for stun. But even then, you have to spam it actively, meaning you're doing shit damage. This skill should have super tight damage range (80->80k), or removal of ND to make it useful.
I'd improve its stun capability, personally. The idea being you put this on LMB and cast it every second to stun everything and then switch to a different skill to do the real damage.

@Demonrend:
I haven't played with this late game, so I don't know how it's damage compares to Slayer. If it needs buffing then sure, Marco should buff it. It would serve as the FI killer to support Burnout.


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Re: Dragonform discussion

Post by Str0b3l on Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:57 pm

well whining is easy but being on the other side isnt
if i was marco.... holy ..... investing shit ton of work and time in that and reading things like that
but as i know marco i guess he thankfully doesnt give shit about this thread because its not the "first" one of this kind

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Re: Dragonform discussion

Post by archon256 on Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:06 pm

I wouldn't dismiss this as baseless whining, it's more constructive feedback than anything. And that's always good to have when you're a modder without access to a paid team of testers Very Happy

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Re: Dragonform discussion

Post by MarcoNecroX on Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:24 pm

it can be constructive but acting like a douche makes it hard to take the post seriously, I'm with str0b3l in this one

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Re: Dragonform discussion

Post by The Big Ouchy on Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:52 pm

The difference between constructive feedback and whining is tone. Tone is developed by word choice when you talk about written  word.  The word choice here is kind of toxic therefore it is more akin to hateful whining.

Dragondin is a high damage low utility build.  The problem with these builds is that you often have a surplus of damage spells with little functional difference between them which leads to people picking the most obviously strong one and ignoring the others.  In this case burnout and to a lesser extent, demonrend are more worth casting than the other 2. For a pure dragon caster this is further complicated by the 5th skill being devoted to the hybrid build while providing no added function to the pure caster. The neutral tree doesn't have much to offer but that is being reworked. I will say that demonrend is stronger than it looks however. Having said all of that, the Holy caster always was and still is more fun and arguably stronger as a hybrid.

The da timer conflict is more of a gameplay influencer than a hindrance except maybe with devaking as it cuts it close. Managing multiple short duration timers is more of a feature that influences decision making when playing imo.

I also forgot to add that I don't consider the build weak but I think the build would benefit from a few tweaks rather than buffs.

Also old holycaster was great fun as a hybrid with hierodule once resonance was implemented. Very Happy

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Re: Dragonform discussion

Post by cowking on Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:41 am

@cowking wrote:
holy caster ends up being

shit

shit

shit

crappy

horrible

fucking

shit

@JohnWayne wrote:
...... DERP

@Str0b3l wrote:
i

know

shit

@JohnWayne wrote:
.... derp

@MarcoNecroX wrote:douche


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