Making innate skill more interesting.

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Making innate skill more interesting.

Post by iwansquall on Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:15 pm

I believe innate skill have been forgotten for long time, well not that people dont want to use, but rather it use limited skill shortcut keys.
While some innate are left by laz because of legacy issues, i think it is good time to revisited the innate skill back again.

Here my problem with all innate skills on all classes.
1. Amazon's Bloodlust - Oskill counterpart are much stronger, this really doesnt make sense. I dunno if scaling %bonus would be not imba, but right i dont think you want to use it than oskill counterpart. I know it remained because various of %bonus to bloodlust.
2. Assassin's... bloodsomething.. bath? - This dual-claw skill is powerful for dedicated batstrike build, but fairless useless for other build.
3. Barbarian Titan strike - Used to give hyper-regen and high stats in median2008. I do hope there some way to make it scale better, but right now i always forgot to use it, because its duration is only 10 seconds.
4. Druid MotW - Sound like good buff compared to bloodlust except there is no AoE. Tried acid fiends summoner before, but casting MotW on every each of them is gonna waste a lot of times.
5. Necromancer's burning veil - Good buff, except weird mechanic. I only hope if each's wall collision size can be increased so you can have easier time to buff stationery target like totem.
6. Paladin's Vindicate - No comments. Really no comments. Maybe because i used to drink potion like madman, so it's regen seem like meh.
7. Sorceress's Force Wall - Good scaling, but capped once timer is off. Have no idea how to make it more wonderful.

I really hope marco can revisit innate skill again. I dunno much how innate skill work/ different from skill in skill tree, but i know skill desc on that skill doesnt take %synergies / formula properly.
It can be potential as 1 point wonder utility skill, but i hope there are way to make it easier to use (like 5 minute duration).
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Re: Making innate skill more interesting.

Post by GregMXL on Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:58 pm

An innate skill should simply be a short buff. You're not dedicating/investing any points in it therefore I think it should just be something to help out your character in the beginning and maybe a slight buff as you progress. I kinda like it the way it is.

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Re: Making innate skill more interesting.

Post by maskedmartyr on Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:24 am

I agree with both posts, the innate do need some changes to see more use across more builds, but they should be more temporary than the actual skills

bloodlust is in a bad position from the huge number of mods that do its job for it, i dont know if its possible but reduce aoe on bloodlust items and have amazon's bloodlust aoe increase should increase actual innate use without hurting the current item builds.

the attack frames for bloodbath kind of irk me, and I don't like the dual claw limitation personally, change one or the other (or both if my qq is strong enough)

Any possible way to make titan strike increase/decrease in effect with missing health? Most people pump vit on barbs, it would be introducing more stats into its progression and maybe would have to be nerfed on the original skill stats for scaling but it at least gives one more vit based skill for barbarian. a completely different suggestion would be to make titan strike an aoe buff to use with barb summoners early. in my opinion, since ive never used titan strike to item juggle, the str/dex buff is gamebreakable at times so it should be changed into an actual form of buff like damage increase and defense with the regen, although this might be too close to a barblust clone

Motw and veil should have a somewhat small aoe, it changes 30 casts in 8 casts, and frankly buffing like a madman is no fun on a summoner. the casting frames alone should be what prevents motw and veil from being used in a tight situation, not its complete lack of coverage (although veil is actually rather effective for what its meant for)

vindicate is fine, should start off slightly better but scale the same endgame if i had to say anything, and im perfectly fine with force wall.

I have no idea if any of my suggestions are implementable, feel free to shred it apart for future analysis
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Re: Making innate skill more interesting.

Post by archon256 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:28 am

maskedmartyr wrote:bloodlust is in a bad position from the huge number of mods that do its job for it, i dont know if its possible but reduce aoe on bloodlust items and have amazon's bloodlust aoe increase should increase actual innate use without hurting the current item builds.
How does AoE matter? The main target of Bloodlust is the one casting it.

maskedmartyr wrote:
the attack frames for bloodbath kind of irk me, and I don't like the dual claw limitation personally, change one or the other (or both if my qq is strong enough)
I don't even think this should be an innate. It's only for dual-wielding sins and there are enough stats on it that can vary with level. It also needs to be changed somehow. I'd be nice if we could somehow make it a passive that only works when dual-wielding claws. Maybe a hidden automod stat on all claws, and the passive only works if you have two of that stat?

maskedmartyr wrote:Any possible way to make titan strike increase/decrease in effect with missing health?
Yeah.

maskedmartyr wrote:a completely different suggestion would be to make titan strike an aoe buff to use with barb summoners early. in my opinion, since ive never used titan strike to item juggle, the str/dex buff is gamebreakable at times so it should be changed into an actual form of buff like damage increase and defense with the regen, although this might be too close to a barblust clone
Really don't like this idea. The point of the buff was to provide additional surviability for melee barbs, like Shadow Refuge for melee sins, Moonstrike for melee sorcs, etc. Barb summoners really don't need yet another source of damage increase.

maskedmartyr wrote:Motw and veil should have a somewhat small aoe, it changes 30 casts in 8 casts, and frankly buffing like a madman is no fun on a summoner. the casting frames alone should be what prevents motw and veil from being used in a tight situation, not its complete lack of coverage (although veil is actually rather effective for what its meant for)
MotW really could use buffing too. Sure, it takes 0 skill points, but it's still a skill that has to be cast periodically. If there's barely any increase in damage, then why should the player even care enough to use it? Why even leave it in then? Just take it out and add a useful active then.

maskedmartyr wrote:im perfectly fine with force wall.
I actually tested a fun idea for Force Wall. Reduce the base timer, increase the base length of the wall and make it so that it hits allies as well enemies. Now you have a double-edged sword - use it carefully and you can split a room into two parts for a lot of the time, screw up and you end up getting stuck on your own wall for the few seconds till the wall ends (as in your character actually gets stuck there and unable to move. It's hilarious, and it's not a huge disadvantage either).
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Re: Making innate skill more interesting.

Post by GregMXL on Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:37 pm

archon256 wrote:
maskedmartyr wrote:im perfectly fine with force wall.
I actually tested a fun idea for Force Wall. Reduce the base timer, increase the base length of the wall and make it so that it hits allies as well enemies. Now you have a double-edged sword - use it carefully and you can split a room into two parts for a lot of the time, screw up and you end up getting stuck on your own wall for the few seconds till the wall ends (as in your character actually gets stuck there and unable to move. It's hilarious, and it's not a huge disadvantage either).
This is actually an awesome idea.
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Re: Making innate skill more interesting.

Post by iwansquall on Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:00 pm

I dunno much about mechanic, but IIRC missiles functions can either damage hostile or allies (i believe forcewall deal tiny-winy dmg like divine apparition)

Well unless you made physical entity like bone wall (which doesnt knockback but block / split room effectively).
At least i never seen any skill that damage BOTH enemy and ally.
(damage hostile + buff allies is possible)
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Re: Making innate skill more interesting.

Post by archon256 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:01 pm

iwansquall wrote:I dunno much about mechanic, but IIRC missiles functions can either damage hostile or allies (i believe forcewall deal tiny-winy dmg like divine apparition)

Well unless you made physical entity like bone wall (which doesnt knockback but block / split room effectively).
At least i never seen any skill that damage BOTH enemy and ally.
(damage hostile + buff allies is possible)
You can do both. I did it. Razz

I think all you need to do is set CollideFriend to 1 in missiles.txt
CollideFriend – Boolean, Can this missile collide with allies (such as holybolt), 1=Allow friendly collision, 0=Disallow friendly collision.
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Re: Making innate skill more interesting.

Post by MarcoNecroX on Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:34 pm

I'm actually waiting this thread to become a "this sucks -> do this" instead of "this sucks".

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Re: Making innate skill more interesting.

Post by iwansquall on Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:48 pm

Because i dont have much knowledge on innate other than

1. Skill description problem
2. Synergies doesnt work well
3. Skill doesnt scale with level (only work with formula and clvl)
4. Formulae can have dummy/bonus stats from gears

That pretty much all i know.
Also, bloodlust and MotW are left as innate skill because various item that give %bonus to it.

*There used to be proc/skill that called "Gift of the Wild" which pretty much AoE MotW.
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Re: Making innate skill more interesting.

Post by vadust on Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:50 pm

Marco can you increase attack speed of assassin's one? It damn slow, since it use claws mb buff it to standard claw speed?

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