Making innate skill more interesting.

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Re: Making innate skill more interesting.

Post by iwansquall on Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:56 pm

Sin's dual-claw attack very slow because of sequence or something....
It is same case for batstrike. (that skill designed for dual-claw, so....)
Laz said it was slow because hardcoded or something.
But it is kinda strange when barb able to dual-wield attack super-fast

You can use WSM bug though, it really helpful at low level.
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Re: Making innate skill more interesting.

Post by archon256 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:18 am

MarcoNecroX wrote:I'm actually waiting this thread to become a "this sucks -> do this" instead of "this sucks".
Hmm, I thought I already did that.
But okay.

First let me point out how you can even a simple damage buff innate can be good or bad depending on what values it has.
Innates cannot have points put into them, so even if a player really really wants to make his character depend on an innate a lot the only thing he can do is cast it every time. So for an innate to be 'good' it should be useful enough that some builds (preferably a lot) of that class will want to cast that innate in various situations.
Imagine an innate that doesn't scale with character level.
Say it increases the player spell damage by 10%. Early game monsters die in 2-3 hits even on high players X, so that 10% is pretty much negligible.
Ok so let's increase it further. Say it increases spell damage by 50%. Now you'll be killing monsters that'd normally take 3 hits in 2, and suddenly the skill is a lot more attractive.
But now let's go to late game. The character by now has several hundred% of spell damage, and that lil' innate is useless again. Since a majority of the time is spent by characters at this stage of the game, it's once again a waste of an innate.

The same goes with %EWD, %attack speed, %move speed, pretty much every stat that you can get a lot of late game. You could "fix" this by making the skill scale majorly with character level, but that feels too strong for a skill that doesn't require any skill points to scale.

But enough of that, here are some actual ideas:
Titan Strike - this is pretty much fine, it's a useful heal early game (probably too strong then, but eh) and it gives a sizable chunk of free stats late game. If you really want to do something interesting with it, you could
a) Have it so that it scales the bonus str/dex given by Mountain King (so instead of tiny bonus from Titan Strike + big bonus from Mountain King late game, you'd have big bonus from Mountain King multiplied even more by Titan Strike)
b) Make it heal 5x (scale with char level?) as fast if you don't have Gethit sparkles state. That way you can use it heal up between battles and save a pot, especially with Eagle Stance. Also rewards players for stacking high def which Barbarians like to do anyway.

Bloodbath - this could go in the dual wield tree, but if you want to keep it as an innate you could do something so that its useful for non-DW sins too:
Have every Assassin claw spawn with an invisible automod Claw stat. Bloodbath should grant 2.5% max HP per kill heal per Claw stat when active, and the Block% when you have 2 Claw stats. Then Claw/Shield Assassins who periodically cast the skill will get a small amount of LaeK, and Dual-claw sins will get twice that and the block. This way you can also increase the duration on this skill. Right now it's a real pain to keep casting (esp with the dumb animation).
If the %heal is OP on Claw/Shield sins, then you can have it heal 1% for one Claw, 5% for two, whatever.

Forcewall - As suggested on the previous page, make it so that this can be casted more often, blocks off a larger area, and then give it the disadvantage that you can get trapped on it if you aren't careful with aiming it (already tested to work).

Bloodlust - Sort of a classic skill, but it's kinda outshined by other sources of it in the game (and rightly so). Since you're reducing ele pierce across the board on items and skills and raising monster resistances, maybe you can replace Bloodlust with a similar buff that grants a moderate amount of -enemy fire resistance to allies? That way it'll be useful to Bloodzons, Bowzons (Dragonlore) and Javazons (Fairy Ring), and it'll be useful all game since it scales multiplicatively with spell and +ele damage.
Still not a very fun skill though, idk.

MotW - Replace with Charm. Or something like it that'll help the Charm tree. MotW = boring, Charm = interesting. Do the math!

Other two are fine, I think. Although the numbers might need to be scaled up. Is it even worthwhile for a melee or xbow Necro to use Veil King on himself late game? I don't think so, but it ought to be.
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Re: Making innate skill more interesting.

Post by MarcoNecroX on Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:21 am

Alright, now we are talking.

Ok so let's increase it further. Say it increases spell damage by 50%. Now you'll be killing monsters that'd normally take 3 hits in 2, and suddenly the skill is a lot more attractive.
But now let's go to late game. The character by now has several hundred% of spell damage, and that lil' innate is useless again. Since a majority of the time is spent by characters at this stage of the game, it's once again a waste of an innate.

As a matter of fact, I see this quite different than you.

I will analyze this in a 'professional' end game view (so to say) instead of a retardfarmer one. At such stages of the game, you fight for 6% spell damage in a jewel instead of 5%. Pretty much part of the end game is to dig as possible into getting as strong as you can get. So, a 50% earlygame overpowered buff is also a "cool" addition for the end-game character.

I think I *partially* fixed this by increasing the duration of most innate skills. Actually this is one of the most important factors, as long as a buff, no matter how weak, has a decent duration, player won't hesitate to use it. This stupid example for this is how the lousy burning veil lasted only 100 frames on laz's MXL. Such thing made it completely useless. Now with increased duration, despite how good the bonuses might be, it's a skill worth using.

The same goes with %EWD, %attack speed, %move speed, pretty much every stat that you can get a lot of late game. You could "fix" this by making the skill scale majorly with character level, but that feels too strong for a skill that doesn't require any skill points to scale.


You can't really tag stats as useless, while EWD would be completely pointless on a bow druid or a spear zon, it becomes godly with an assassin for example (not a single source of ewd other than shadow refuge if my memory doesn't fail). Speeds are another thing, again, paladins for example or barbarians with wolf stance could not need it, but others like bowzons (that need 200% ias for best speed iirc) could make a big use out of them.

a) Have it so that it scales the bonus str/dex given by Mountain King (so instead of tiny bonus from Titan Strike + big bonus from Mountain King late game, you'd have big bonus from Mountain King multiplied even more by Titan Strike)

It is not a bad idea but I always found 'stat buffs' (and even more on a direct melee skill) to be kind of odd. You know it somehow increases your damage a bit (and probably AR) and they look even more unreliable considering you can not depend on such buffs for calculating for example if you have a stable block count, or even for wearing gear.

b) Make it heal 5x (scale with char level?) as fast if you don't have Gethit sparkles state. That way you can use it heal up between battles and save a pot, especially with Eagle Stance. Also rewards players for stacking high def which Barbarians like to do anyway.

While again this isn't a bad idea either, I'm not sure if we should focusing on modifying it's current bonuses or doing something different. I don't think players should rely their regeneration on a spell they didn't even invest points in, and having it heal too low doesn't make it appealing. So again, I think the skill might require a different approach.

Bloodbath - this could go in the dual wield tree, but if you want to keep it as an innate you could do something so that its useful for non-DW sins too:
Have every Assassin claw spawn with an invisible automod Claw stat. Bloodbath should grant 2.5% max HP per kill heal per Claw stat when active, and the Block% when you have 2 Claw stats. Then Claw/Shield Assassins who periodically cast the skill will get a small amount of LaeK, and Dual-claw sins will get twice that and the block. This way you can also increase the duration on this skill. Right now it's a real pain to keep casting (esp with the dumb animation).
If the %heal is OP on Claw/Shield sins, then you can have it heal 1% for one Claw, 5% for two, whatever.

The main problem with this skill is that just by casting it you're sacrificing killspeed, which means bigger damage income, but at the same time it will heal you. So negate both aspects and whether you use the skill or not will not make no difference, it will just make you slower.

I must say I don't like this skill at all.. Needs a remake imo.

Forcewall - As suggested on the previous page, make it so that this can be casted more often, blocks off a larger area, and then give it the disadvantage that you can get trapped on it if you aren't careful with aiming it (already tested to work).

I have read it, and it is an interesting approach. I think this skill has a potential of being useful, specially for such character that is mostly caster.

Bloodlust - Sort of a classic skill, but it's kinda outshined by other sources of it in the game (and rightly so). Since you're reducing ele pierce across the board on items and skills and raising monster resistances, maybe you can replace Bloodlust with a similar buff that grants a moderate amount of -enemy fire resistance to allies? That way it'll be useful to Bloodzons, Bowzons (Dragonlore) and Javazons (Fairy Ring), and it'll be useful all game since it scales multiplicatively with spell and +ele damage.
Still not a very fun skill though, idk.

Thing with new pierce paradigm is I won't really make it scale with skills, so in most cases I won't even add it to skills/passives at all. Simply because "1% fire pierce" at level 1 and "2%" at level 20 looks stupid, and things like fairy ring will be completely unwanted side-effects for the wdm charm.

MotW - Replace with Charm. Or something like it that'll help the Charm tree. MotW = boring, Charm = interesting. Do the math!

Well, my inital goal with charm was to make people able to tweak the skill how they wanted it by playing with hard and soft points, enabling people to 'choose' both the duration and/or range of the skill. 'Something that'll help the charm tree' goes against the concept of innates imo (and has to be fixed on innates that don't follow this, like BB).

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Re: Making innate skill more interesting.

Post by archon256 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:56 am

MarcoNecroX wrote:Actually this is one of the most important factors, as long as a buff, no matter how weak, has a decent duration, player won't hesitate to use it.
Definitely, but does that make it fun? An innate skill is a skill you get before you get any other skill in the game, it's the skill that you have the most chance to use. There's a lot of potential there, and I don't want it to be just a boring (effectively) passive increase.

MarcoNecroX wrote:
You can't really tag stats as useless, while EWD would be completely pointless on a bow druid or a spear zon, it becomes godly with an assassin for example (not a single source of ewd other than shadow refuge if my memory doesn't fail). Speeds are another thing, again, paladins for example or barbarians with wolf stance could not need it, but others like bowzons (that need 200% ias for best speed iirc) could make a big use out of them.
Yeah I'm not saying they're useless on every char. I'm saying they're practically useless on chars that already get a lot of it from other sources.

MarcoNecroX wrote:
The main problem with this skill (Bloodbath) is that just by casting it you're sacrificing killspeed, which means bigger damage income, but at the same time it will heal you. So negate both aspects and whether you use the skill or not will not make no difference, it will just make you slower.

I must say I don't like this skill at all.. Needs a remake imo.
That's only a problem if the skill duration is low. Right now Laz has kept it low because otherwise a player can swap to dual-wield, cast Bloodbath, then switch to Naginata for next X seconds and gain both the LaeK and block! Ofc you can still do it, but the duration is so low that it's meant to be annoying to do.
But if you use the claw automod thing you don't need to cast it as much -> you aren't sacrificing much damage. Once every 10-15 seconds is ok, IMO.
And it's more "fun" than passive stat increase because you can actually see your character gaining life throughout the game whenever you kill something instead of a small unnoticeable damage boost.
But if you can think of something better, go for it. Just remember that dual-wield sins need some other defensive skill to make up for it.
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Re: Making innate skill more interesting.

Post by proklet on Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:54 pm

With everyone being far more knowledgeable on the game than myself being so kind to point out all the faults and problems with current iteration of innate skills, it would be silly of me to unskillfully add anything regarding that.

On the other hand, I may have a few ideas that may or may not work to actually help and fix the problem. Now, everyone expressed that, as they are, current innates are more or less good, but not exactly what is needed/wanted. So, in light of that, I present you my own ideas for each class' innate skill.

Amazon: Clearly, a buff, but not exactly bloodlust style. Short-term buff that gives +% Spelldmg(Just an idea) and a scaling chance for Deadly Strike(Really not used often in Median, dunno why?). Now, the trick is, in that it refreshes duration on kill. Note that it should have short duration, so empty screen would mean you'd need to cast it again once the battle starts over, BUT. As long the creeps keep on coming, you'd be able to sustain it if you kill fast enough. Generally, with the bonuses it provides, it should be no problem to keep it sustained.

Assassin: While bloodbath may have had it's uses in the past (for me at least), I agree with the general consensus it just doesn't work. Now, what I propose is following. A single target self-buff that grants life on kill (obviously) is the first thing, and is also expected, as to not wander off too much from the main topic of the innate. The second effect, however, could be (a chance) for it to apply fear on nearby foes (again an effect I really don't see often), again, on kill.

Barbarian: Now, I don't know what to say about Titan Strike. I mean, it's a good still that I often use on my barbs, but.. it doesn't feel grand enough to live up to it's name? I know some are gonna argue it's a 0 SP skill, but.. really, don't call it Titan Strike if you're not going to make it one.
But, enough of that. My proposition to altering it so it can "live up to it's name" could be to make it a slow attack with 100% Uninterrupted (maybe even AOE, optional), then let it's buff (good idea to make it AOE buff to affect your summons too), instead of silly stat buff give instead % Uninterrupted, some Max health and Total defense.

Druid: Mark of the Wild. Hmm. It could be good, if it also had some Thorns Razz. WoW players know what I'm talking about, but, indeed, damage return would be a nifty buff and would make it worth while, imo.
Still, I would like to make a different proposition, as much as I like the above idea. A summon, with the similar effects like the said MotW, but as an aura. Preferably untargetable, with no attacks, maybe a support oskill it could spam randomly (It's a Spirit of the Wild, so, yeah, whatever makes sense.)

Necromancer: Now, I thought long about this one. There were few things that made sense, but.. basically the only thing that came to mind was a statical totem-like summon (some form of red portal?) that would buff nearby friendlies every now and then.

I'll skip Paladin and Sorceress as they both have a pretty decent, not to mention useful innates and/or have already had good proposition on how to change those.
Now, I dunno if what I suggested will be of any use, but, I do hope it would at least give you guys some inspiration for some new ideas, if anything.
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Re: Making innate skill more interesting.

Post by DanielWolf on Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:36 pm

@proklet - i was thinking the exact same thing as you did for MotW, but for the necro innate instead (summon a single skeleton, it has an aura that has the necro innate buff, then moves with your army)

Also, don't hesitate to contribute your opinion. People will point out where an idea might not work, but any idea could be a good one that no one has ever thought of. I think your Titan Strike idea's excellent, especially the aoe buff part (summons need all the help they can get usually)
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Re: Making innate skill more interesting.

Post by iwansquall on Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:49 pm

-Refresh after kill
Never seen that mechanic in median before, im assume that mechanic not possible. %deadly strike is double damage for physical attack only IIRC.

-Bloodbath
People already proved that %Buff/Debuff/Cold duration works with this skill. That alone already made it a fine skill. Problem with spell is that it arent design for all build type.

-Titan strike
Used to give you high life %regen, so with old titan strike + eagle stance, your life wont drop. 100% UA is kinda too cheap IMO. AoE buff kinda... barb have stance already.

-MotW
Thorn is useless in median. cLoD's thorn only work with melee attack. Untargetable aura summon is kinda cheap version of cLoD's druid spirit (oak, wolverine, barbs)

-Support totem
Necro had too many totem already, we need something different. Even standard curse would work better.

-Paladin
Balanced? That is funny.

-Sorceress
Best innate skill IMO.
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Re: Making innate skill more interesting.

Post by DanielWolf on Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:56 pm

Instead of the totem, how about an innate summon that carries the buff as an aura?

Necros are the traditional summoners after all, give them a golem that radiates the burning veil effect as an aura, has good life and terrible dmg (scaled by lvl), or a ghost that is untargettable and does no dmg, but carries that aura (like sorc familiars do)

As for Vindicate, it's a Holy Pally's only healing skill, but it might be more practical as an innate buff or aura
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Re: Making innate skill more interesting.

Post by volvo on Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:10 pm

Hallo!
I have an issue with my innate skill which is called "Mark of the wild".
I play single player Median XL Ultimative XIV-b. Started with a druid, leveled up to 43 with the bow tree and then respec to traprat. Before the respec my innate skill MotW was around 62~63 seconds (that's what the description said), after respec it reduced its duration to 28 seconds. Is it a bug or feature?

edit: the innate skill gets 1 second per 5 hard points in strength.

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Re: Making innate skill more interesting.

Post by Istaryu on Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:30 pm

You had items with +buff duration

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