XVc gameplay feedback

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XVc gameplay feedback

Post by Gekko64 on Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:05 pm

I'm opening a new thread because I don't feel like derailing the bug thread, post here if you think some mod features could be improved and explain how. Here's some thoughts:

1) Oil of Blessed Luck: this is better than a regular Oil of Luck so it should require more effort, but having to get this in Terror where no SU can drop is annoying. I'd recommend making the Special Box drop in Destruction too, and buffing Grisworld ( heroic shield like Vaca Loca's seems fitting ) 

2) Lorenado: I appreciate the pun about books providing lore, but the visuals are laggy so imo removing the books was a good idea in the first place.

3) Sorc poison set overshadows other gear options to the point most sorcs on realm get that one and never look back.

4) Veil King: the Rathma Chosen cheese was already fixed by changing their immunity, the latest change with the VK becoming superfast and respawing just makes the skill impractical to use.

5) Duncraig teleport areas:  Duncraig is the best farming spot in a farming game where much of the endgame viability of a build depends on being able to farm it efficiently. Teleport areas just bias it heavily towards pouncezons, which don't exactly require much skill to succeed either. It also makes the Void charm unproportionally good for Duncraig  ( sure you could use Nef staff but weapon switch lag is pretty nasty in MP ) . It doesn't even make the quest harder to complete since all you need is one buddy to help you with town portals and you can clear it slowly.

6 ) Wolf druid is too good for farming ( harbinger ) and impractical for single targets ( twisted claw ) , and there's a cheesy way to bypass mana degen atm. I'm assuming Marco knows how already.

7) Cornerstone of the world: I understand the worries about using op cotws on all your characters, but are we sure having most cotws on realm sitting on taw's mules is preferrable? The vast majority of players are not going to risk socketing a cotw in the "wrong" item and are going to sell them to whoever wants to collect them. The fact that many cotws require testing to find out if they are even viable AND that some cotw granted skills are different from their counterparts found elsewhere doesn't help either. You could buy some cotw that sounds perfect for your build at high price and find out it's useless.


edit:


8. Toraja: pretty much nobody farms this place, because ( a. it's slow b. you need a summoner c. summoners are slow d. nobody plays summoners because of point c. ) . This leads to toraja great runes having hugely inflated prices on realm, which I'm pretty sure is not intended


Last edited by Gekko64 on Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:52 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Re: XVc gameplay feedback

Post by romanN1 on Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:43 pm

1) Blessed oil of luck in destruction with a heroic shield on griswold sounds nice but imo it should nerf griswolds damage and hp maybe.
2) Lorenado is trully laggy so a different form of it would be better.
3) Who cares if some people think the sorc poison set is the best in slot when there are other options, even better than that set?
4) High risk = High reward. If you don't know how to keep your veil king alive than don't use it.
5) Duncraig's difficulty is impossible, don't forget that. That's why it's common to die there.
6) Wolf druid is balanced imo and twisted claw is a very powerfull single target skill, but the mana degen bypass bug is trully not fair.
7) Who cares is some players collect cotws instead of using them? Who want's to risk by putting one into an item and resulting in a bad decision will do it, who doesn't will not do it. Regarding the skills from them, you can't know them all, but you can learn them by experimenting. And regarding all of them staying in taw's mules, don't worry if you farm you can find duplicates of them Smile.

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Re: XVc gameplay feedback

Post by Gekko64 on Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:45 pm

3) You are not considering the implications in an MP environment: player perception is as important as actual effectiveness. Who cares if everyone plays the same builds and wants the same items? Maybe you don't because you don't play on realm, personally I find that quite boring.

4) Thank you for telling me, essentially, to learn to play. Yes, I do realize I can resummon the VK before it dies. The Risk / Reward ratio was already reasonably set on it, the new XV mechanics are only useful if you like to use the VK to troll other players.

5) Difficulty: Impossible means absolutely nothing, it's essentially lore. Gameplay dictates the lore, not the other way around. Again, you are not considering the MP implications of how insanely popular pouncezon and similar characters become because of this new/old teleport design.

6) Everyone who played it agrees that it's OP for farming and useless vs bosses 

7) I don't care if I find cotws or not, I care about the overall realm experience and I think that if people were allowed to experiment with the cotws they find, those jewels would contribute more fun to the community than a pretty picture on page 1 of the ss thread does. the current situation looks like in an effort to make life harder for a very few select players, everyone else got shafted while those few select players are unaffected because a. they are the ones who know which cotws are good and b. they are rich enough to buy all the cotws they want

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Re: XVc gameplay feedback

Post by romanN1 on Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:18 pm

3) I didn't consider the MP environment, nor the SP, but just the game at it is. It's very flexible, there are tons of options, everyone could do what they want and what they like to avoid the boredom.
4) I didn't told you to learn to play, neither did I wanted you to understand that, so it's not my problem. I don't take things personally when giving feedback in a feedback thread. Other than that I'm not the only one that's gonna say "Learn to keep your Veil King alive".
5) Oh yes that difficulty means something and it's been said a lot of times in older discussions. Just like certain ubers are harder for wdm builds and easier for casters, exactly the same certain ubers are harder for some specific builds and easier for others.
6) I played it to and you might be surprised that I succesfully killed Zorun Tzin, Kabraxis, Belial and other bosses, so it's not good only for farming.
7) The main purpose of those jewels were to make things different and in some cases making your character more powerfull and it is pure normal that this aspect to be at the risk of something, in this case if you don't have enough knowledge then you will end up losing 10 MOs/2 UMOs and 1 socket from an average or OP item because you don't have any idea of the skill that cotw offered.

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Re: XVc gameplay feedback

Post by Gekko64 on Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:09 pm

3) There is no such thing as "the game as it is" , metagaming is also important. yes in theory players could all make their own build, but that's not going to happen if one of the options overwhelms the others due to it being both cheap AND very powerful.

4) Please explain how the XV behaviour is an improvement over the XIV behaviour. Summon Veil King is a lot less viable now, which means less build variety.

5) Other ubers are not the best farming spot in a game that's essentially about farming. Barrels already give Duncraig unique mechanics that benefit characters that can kill fast and stay on the move. Teleport zones exacerbate this too much. 

6) Congratulations, but the fact that you can do it doesn't mean it's remotely efficient. The problem is that mana degen ceases to be a rubberband mechanic if you itemize for it, and once that happens it turns into rapemode. This is similar to how the old pouncesin was problematic in that once you dealt enough damage to hitlock enemies you basically beat the game.

7) How is the current behaviour an improvement over the old one? I like that cotws can be more common this way, but at the end of the day what good those it do if they are going to be sitting on a mule?

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Re: XVc gameplay feedback

Post by suchbalance on Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:52 pm

Nice post, discussing the "meta" is always fun.

1) Would be nice to move the drop to Destruction purely for convenience. Visiting Tristram at the end of a farming run to get the reagent instead of having to create a game on Terror purely for that reason sounds good. I don't think buffing Gris is necessary. If Marco wanted that oil to be less readily available he could have made it a zone drop in Khalimgrad for example (so ppl have a reason to go there).

2) Renaming the skill to something more lore friendly and removing sprite overflow issues would be nice.

@Gekko64 wrote:3) You are not considering the implications in an MP environment: player perception is as important as actual effectiveness. Who cares if everyone plays the same builds and wants the same items? Maybe you don't because you don't play on realm, personally I find that quite boring.

I find your argument inadequate. People roll poison/cold sorcs because they are the easiest sorc to play not because the set is overpowered. The number of poison immune monsters in uberlevels is the lowest among the elements and you can use on kill procs, which results in the least amount of skill switching among all sorc specs. Hence nerfing the set would not reduce the popularity of this build I believe.

4) From a non-summoner player point of view, the only good thing about this change is that it made Mephisto in Yshari harder as he was useless before. Other than that I see it as a flavour/variety skill fine as it is imo. The respawning may be a touch too much however.

5) Removing the teleport requirement, would allow every build under the sun to farm it with ease thereby increasing the SU supply on the ladder tremendously. Even then the uber will still favour pouncezons/wolves purely because pounce is an overpowered mechanic when facing mainly melee enemies. I would rather keep it as it is, but if teleport req is removed then surely it must be accompanied by a heavy drop rates nerf, or at least nerfing Dunc and slightly buffing sacred items droprates in other comparable farming spots like Truine/Yshari/Unformed land.

6) I don't see a problem here. Different builds excel at different things. Pouncezon also sucks at single target. Both wolf and pouncezon can respec to do more single target damage if they would like to do so. I do hope however that the cheese is fixable.

7) CotW not being able to be unsocketed is fine to me. To promote build diversity / fun however I would like to see a slight increase in their drop rates, accompanied by the removal of all buff CotWs e.g. stuff like rapture, tainted blood, QoB etc. as these do not promote build diversity but simply promote cheese.

8 ) Agree that farming the level is simply not fun at all, but I don't know how that can be improved without reworking the entire zone. Furthermore the Toraja GRs should be rarer than Fauzt GRs as their runewords are on average more powerful. Maybe give Yshari sanctum Chimaeras, Demon Lords, and last zone mini bosses a better Toraja GR drop bias to increase availability slightly and promote a more interesting way to farm then while still being challenging.

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Re: XVc gameplay feedback

Post by romanN1 on Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:19 pm

@Gekko64
3) if I choose to make a build, I make it, even if it isn't maybe the most powerfull or not
4) I'm sorry but if other more experienced players then me didn't felt forced to explain this because of some obvious reasons then neither do I.
5) You don't have to farm only in duncraig, I for example don't farm duncraig at all and if I would farm it I would choose the 1.Z9 variant so I don't have problems with those small spots.
6) I didn't say that and to be honest no character is efficient at doing certain ubers, unless you discover what and how to do it.
7) The current behavior of being unable to unsocket cotws is an improvement by the fact that will force certain players to read the docs/know more about mechanics and not just maxing certain skills "because it's better...gives moar damage", but to know how does soft points improve a spell and how do hard points improve a spell, if a spell is based on hardpoints or if it's a 1 point wonder. Basically most cotws that are actually usefull are being like that if you do know what to do with them.

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Re: XVc gameplay feedback

Post by Asteroth on Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:46 am

@romanN1 wrote:5) You don't have to farm only in duncraig, I for example don't farm duncraig at all and if I would farm it I would choose the 1.Z9 variant so I don't have problems with those small spots.

That's one of the few privileges of being on Single player. You can keep certain map rolls. On realm, the maps are always re-rolled and one of the duncraig map variants (the one most people hate) is way more common than the other (the one where the entrance leads to 2 massive rooms).

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Re: XVc gameplay feedback

Post by romanN1 on Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:52 am

You might be surprised that my plugy is set to always reroll just to have a similar experience Very Happy. Other than that you can reroll to on realm Very Happy.

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Re: XVc gameplay feedback

Post by Asteroth on Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:05 am

fair enough. I just find it so annoying to try and roll the right duncraig map. I cannot get through the map to the 5 sigils and kill assur on the newer variant, and i'm forced to roll for the older one (cause i'm noob i guess)

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