MXL ζ: predictions & discussion

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MXL ζ: predictions & discussion

Post by suchbalance on Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:48 am

MNX on balance wrote: To give a bit more detail: item drops1, charms2, and items3. These three are currently needing balance improvements to make the difficulty curve among all players more fair.

Currently, there are too many gamechanging items/charms: in this state, some of these items/charms become a necessity to continue playing, to the point where you cannot make further progress if you haven't completed a series of uberquests or obtained certain items. This forces a few undesired events such as players feeling they need to create other classes for certain uberquests or grind signets like maniacs or trade their lucky finds to feed those who can steamroll the tricky uberquests to get you a charm. The idea is to make the game more ongoing and natural.4

I was wondering what people's opinions / wishes were regarding the upcoming balance changes. Here's what I think about the key points:



1. Item drops: Let's start with the obvious - sacred item drop rates in Duncraig are way too high compared to anywhere else. Fauztinville is the best place to farm Jewellery + Jewels + Pgems + Shrines, so anything else besides what you can get in Dunc. However you still get a decent amount of SUs because of the insane density and some GRs as icing on the cake. There is no reason why you would farm any other levels if you are just interested in getting the best loot.

Idea: reduce sacred item drop rates in Dunc by X%, buff sacred item drop rates in other ubers by Y where X > Y. Aim is to have the same amount of sacred items dropped overall, just less in one place to promote less boredom (dunc will still be best just by a smaller margin). Remove / nerf jewel drops in Fauzt, buff jewel drops in Vizjun, for example. Basically Fauzt is already way too good overall and will have its own charm reward in Sigma as well. Time to make it less omnipotent imo.

Overall SU drop rates and SU/SSU/SSSU ratio. What do people think here? Do we want more sacred uniques or less, do we want to make the overpowered SSSUs rarer or not?



2. Charms: Some of the cMXL uberquest reward charms are now way too powerful compared to how easy it is to obtain them. This is just a natural outcome of adding harder ubers in Ultimative. So the most overpowered charms coming from not so hard bosses in my opinion are the: Crystalline flame medallion, Book of Lies, Astrogha's Stinger & Silver Seal of Ureh (QT).

Hard to decide how to address these however. Some like the CFM / QT can simply be nerfed and that might be the best idea. Others such as Belial + Astro are too strong, but the flat life bonus enables glass cannons to be viable, so I am not sure if nerfs here are appropriate. Therefore I would like to see the flat HP bonuses in the above two cut and moved to something else like Kingdom of shadow or Brachyceran for example (makes some sense, as they are bigger challenges for glass cannons; make them work for the hp).

Some of the ultimative charms are also very overpowered - the biggest culprit here is the Void. Fair enough it is probably the hardest uber out there, but giving it such an OP oskill makes everyone and their dog want to trade their life away to obtain it and then the whole game degenerates to Enigma style cLoD. Median was always about avoiding widespread telespam so I feel this is a bit out of place.



3. Items: This one is probably the easiest to predict. The majority of Marco's sacred uniques are overpowered to the point of becoming best in slot equipment for the vast majority of classes and builds (as a result most runewords are now useless but the 1% that have some niche proc, and crafted items by extension have also become worse). All of the strongest ones probably need to be toned down (you know which they are), but this might cause some QQ / legacy issues for the single player community so it is a delicate issue.

Other build mandatory items in my opinion need to be redesigned/nerfed. I'm talking about stuff like Danmaku or Vizharan/Stormsail? here. In fact I would like to see all buffs removed from CotWs but that's just me.

I would imagine most of the new items that will be added next patch will be for the new builds which do not have a wide selection of gear.



4. "Making the difficulty curve among players fairer": So Marco wants to make it so that more and more people can go from an untwinked start, to farming destruction to doing ubers for themselves. It is, in my opinion, the way the game should be played but the question is how is this going to be achieved?

Do you simply make the majority of uberquests easier across the board so less experienced players can complete them without having to character switch? Probably not since nerfing the ubers will make the game more boring and will decrease player retention over time. People need some sort of challenge to stay hooked / keep coming back to median.

Nerfing some of the build mandatory items (i.e. Danmaku) and SSSUs (i.e. demonic touch, knight's grace, black void etc..) would make it so the character power progression is more natural rather than being flat and then spiking massively after obtaining the above, hence making the difficulty among players fairer. However this runs into the problem that it would make farming and ubers more difficult for beginners. Most of these players simply 24/7 grind k3k / TA (dunc if pouncezon lol) until they can buy themselves a full set of charms. Then they can start farming anywhere, trade for the remaining SSSUs they miss and eventually get bored of farming and quit until the reset.

So basically I am at a loss as to how exactly the attempt to "make the difficulty curve among players fairer" will actually impact the above vicious circle without affecting the difficulty of the ubers adversely.

Curious to see what y'all think.

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Re: MXL ζ: predictions & discussion

Post by MUS01 on Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:35 am

Before all other discusion, we need clear some things:
1-You ¡re a newby or pro or mid player in Median? I'm sure you are not a newby.- So, many of your statements are biased. If the goal of the modder is bring new players, then your sugestions don't walk in the same way....

2-Do you farm Duncraig with a 700% MF javazon/sin or any other "endgame char"?
If yes, then you're right, Duncraig is overpowered. If you're a mid player (like me) then Duncraig is fine. Why? Cause mid/newbyes/untwinked players don't have the power to farm with that amount of MF (my barb uses 200%) and we don't have the killspeed showed in videos.

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Re: MXL ζ: predictions & discussion

Post by MUS01 on Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:42 am

I will say again: what's the goal of the mod?
Bring new players?
or being a mod for veterans or pro players...

It's captain obvious say that a newby or even a mid players like me, don't have the same concept of "easy" or "hard". Veterans claim the mod being too easy, newbys and mid players stays in the other side.

My barb is the living proof about you need an assasin or paladin for complete all quest in the game.

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Re: MXL ζ: predictions & discussion

Post by Wotan on Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:01 am

Spoiler alert : Akara will now sell Guac on Destruction.
Median 2008 was the last untwinked noobie friendly mod, but it was kinda too easy... even for a newbies.
Its hard to bring balance between newbies/average player and a pro.
If I remember correctly there was a suggestion way back to make terror ubers drop lesser charms.

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Re: MXL ζ: predictions & discussion

Post by potapo_gourouni on Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:00 pm

-About charms. I think that this thing, about obtaining some charms to progress is not that bad. Its like the flow of the game. Progressing through difficulties and when finally in the last difficulty (destruction) there are special bosses with special rewards to help you defeat the last difficulty if that's someone's goal. Also when someone is stuck somewhere, will try to find ways to move on. The way to go on through some obstacles might be obtaining a charm from an Uberboss. Why not?
What i think is needed, is some ingame documentation about Ubers. Maybe make the "necessary" ones, that are needed for game progress, Quests (with a new NPC added??).
Or as Wotan suggested, make some "necessary" charms drom in Terror.
-About the item drops, i think this is well balanced.
-About the items. I think this is well balanced also. Runewords are good to help someone as he is progressing in game since they have a variety in level requirements and there are also some good ones to use for end game. Having some "super" su items in game is really nice. And having people preffering them over others is normal and not bad.
-Here i'd like to state something that i find little disturbing. Is the time someone needs to complete some Ubers. Is it really necessary or nice or attractive or newbie friendly or even pro friendly to have bosses that someone needs to spend half a day to reach them? (speaking out of the experience with Yshaari. havent even tried Uldy yet, cause i think it needs too much time)
-generally, i think game is well balanced as it is.
sorry for bad english

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Re: MXL ζ: predictions & discussion

Post by MUS01 on Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:10 pm

About the time: you need a half day for reach uldy, and other day for kill him..XD

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Re: MXL ζ: predictions & discussion

Post by romanN1 on Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:10 pm

Well iirc Marco already proposed to the community to make charms drop in terror (don't remember if also in hatred), but with lower stats and that could be a good idea to make the difficulty curve more linear, but imho some charms must remain difficult to get so that the game would still be challenging and reaching the endgame also...
@MUS01 uldy isn't that hard to do... Imho there are far more annoying ubers than that but that's the idea of them... If uldy is a hard uber than Void should be unachievable Neutral

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Re: MXL ζ: predictions & discussion

Post by potapo_gourouni on Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:23 pm

I agree Roman, but i dont speak about how difficult a Boss is but how much time someone needs to even reach it.
An idea about the charms, could be that they all can drop in hatred but with low stats. Then in terror someone might be able to upgrade them by defeating each boss.
Obtaining for example butcher's tooth in hatred and then upgrading it in terror by killing butcher again and upgrading it again in destruction??

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Re: MXL ζ: predictions & discussion

Post by romanN1 on Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:26 pm

Well being able to have charms in hatred doesn't seem fair because you have the character orb that already can provide all you need.

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Re: MXL ζ: predictions & discussion

Post by potapo_gourouni on Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:37 pm

Yeah. Forgot about it. Maybe you're right.

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