Every Skill should have some kind of Hardskill Point Bonus

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Every Skill should have some kind of Hardskill Point Bonus

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Every Skill should have some kind of Hardskill Point Bonus

Post by HalfGodBro on Tue May 05, 2015 11:32 pm

Well, imo, i think that all skills should have some kind of bonus for putting hardskill points in it, even if its not really big, i find that theres too many skill that only need 1 points to be effective because of the high amount of +skills in this game

For exemple, the entire Barb melee skills...i don't see many people putting more than 1 points into those skills, hardskill points in those could add some power to the skills or to a Stance or any other skills, i dont know

I really like like this hardpoints system, and think it should be on even more skills, what do you think?

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Re: Every Skill should have some kind of Hardskill Point Bonus

Post by Kurne on Tue May 05, 2015 11:40 pm

i believe it could add more diversity to the builds instead of adding more/different abilities. Why would you put a idc lol option...? does it require a minimum of 3 to poll...?

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Re: Every Skill should have some kind of Hardskill Point Bonus

Post by archon256 on Wed May 06, 2015 12:27 am

Some skills are designed to be good without a hardpoint bonus. That allows you to use them as 1pters and use the points saved in other skills. That's actually one of the best things about the barb melee tree. You invest just 1 pt in each and you have
a) A spammable wide-area skill
b) A 3s screen-wide stun on a short cd
c) Two different high-damage low-AoE skills
d) A medium AoE high WDM debuff + damage skill
And you can use all of them while playing the same build!

Of course there's nothing stopping Marco from going in and adding a hard-point bonus to each of them. They're already good at 1 point, so in theory you could have specific builds where you max each of them (technically you can already do so with Thunderslam in a Snake Stance slammer build). It's just hard to design and balance the many resulting possibilities.

Btw that's one of the things I hate about the throw barb tree. The skills are absolutely terrible at low-levels compared to the melee skills because of the point investment needed. I would redesign it so that Bear Claw is removed, the next three skills are moved up and their base no of projectiles increased, and a new rlvl 18 passive added that boosts the number of projectiles thrown by the other three throw skills plus something else (increased damage with axes? Could use it with a 2H melee axe build too that way).

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Re: Every Skill should have some kind of Hardskill Point Bonus

Post by MarcoNecroX on Wed May 06, 2015 2:07 am

Seems like it wasn't obvious enough but most one-point wonders aren't "an evil creation from the modder", some skills have limitations on how their mechanics can scale with level, additionally, 1pt wonders are part of the essence of balance in this game, there are many skills that are intended to work this way, say barbarian melee skills for example.


Also something like this contradicts the feature of 'increasing returns', which is basically the bonus you get for investing a lot of skill points into them. It turns out these are most times the strongest skills too. Linear increases do not look attractive enough, and let's face it, people usually max the skills they pick, they don't bother doing something like putting 5 skill points in all their skills and make some wicked hybrid. Now add passives, which eat up a bunch of your skill points, sometimes over the half. People pick one-point wonders so they can add more utility and variety to their gameplay. Where I'm going at is that it is going to make no difference, see for example the melee barb skills, they didn't use to have all these magic damage per strength bonuses, now they do and people still don't max them. The only solution is making the skill strong enough so that it gets maxed and replaces another skill. This makes no difference because then people will just switch to the stronger combo, the result you get is the same.

As for mechanics, see for example skills like beacon. It works at one point because well, it's supposed to be a nuclear bomb, so damage has to be strong enough for the skill to even exist, so you're left with buffing the duration which is completely irrelevant or adding more stats to the buff which is in my opinion a very random way to solve something that is fine as is.





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Re: Every Skill should have some kind of Hardskill Point Bonus

Post by archon256 on Wed May 06, 2015 2:23 am

see for example the melee barb skills, they didn't use to have all these magic damage per strength bonuses, now they do and people still don't max them
The magic damage strength bonuses scale with soft points, so there's no point in putting points into the skills Razz

But that's a good thing, as I said above. Barb tree is the most interesting to me precisely because I don't have to invest all my points into the active skill. That frees up a lot of points to use for other things, like stances, wolf companion, fortress (cant be your only skill due to min timer), assorted other passives.

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Re: Every Skill should have some kind of Hardskill Point Bonus

Post by HalfGodBro on Wed May 06, 2015 2:51 am

i understand your point Marco, but like archon said, in this game with such high amount of +skills, if it scales with soft points, you are better off putting points into the skills that gets better with hardpoints, i'm not saying, remove the 1 point wonder utility skills, but those utility skills could become Main skill maybe with the help of Hard Points in it, right now the "Free" Magic damage in the barb tree could have been hardpoints, they only got buffed for free, and they were already pretty good.
Since there are skills with hardpoints bonus, i feel like im wasting my skillpoints when i invest in a skill that get stronger with softskill...of course every skill should get stronger with softskill, but its just so much more interesting when it gets even stronger if you dedicate your skills into it

Also, it could be a good idea to revamp the Throw Tree of barb, the skills are pretty weak early game, and Bear claw is pretty useless because of stampede, also the starting range should be higher imo, but i'm not an expert, its only a suggestion afterall

EDIT: Rebound imo is a perfect exemple of what i like of a skill, at 1 points, youve got a ranged skill that does Alt damage and hit multiple target, with soft points, you get more damage..now if you put hardpoint in it, youve got More target, and More range! so you can max it for Main Skill, or put 5-10 points if you wanna use it as your main Alt Damage and be more effective...imo its a really good exemple of what i think is good design
And theres skills like overkill that doesnt get boosted by softskills points at all, it could add at least an extra axe? and hardpoints give +4, that way we don't feel like its necessary to smax it, cause our +skills could cover the extra damage that we seek, and we can use our points for diversity as well
And 1 points wonder skill like stormblast that cannot be really boosted further more by adding points, cause it only add range, and having range that goes over what we can see really feel unecessary sometimes
im pretty sure its possible to balance every skill and keep their utility, and make them attractive to spend our points into it
This game is already a huge improvement over D2 Vanilla, but theres always a way to polish it even more Very Happy

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Re: Every Skill should have some kind of Hardskill Point Bonus

Post by Borgin on Thu May 07, 2015 4:19 am

@HalfGodBro wrote:
This game is already a huge improvement over D2 Vanilla, but theres always a way to polish it even more Very Happy
Then learn how to mod and start offering real insight.

Less ragey,

Marco's points are definitely true- he's the fucking modder after all- but from my personal experience modding (which is considerable), Diablo 2 is coded like balls. Things like the notorious passive update bug, auras only on LMB, no hardpoint range increase, 255-character skillfunc limits, etc etc make it so quite literally some things simply can not be improved without scrapping the skill entirely.

While I disagree with him a little on the design idea that some skills are intentionally designed as 1-pters, I understand why he's done this and it does make sense. However, his point remains- even if everything were rebalanced and good hard-point synergies were included on every skill, people would still just max the "best" skills. D2 has, and forever will be (like almost every ARPG ever) a game about min/maxing, and even dynamic, interesting, flavorful skills get tossed by the wayside for dumb AoE screen-cleaners because the point of this game is to kill things fast- you don't get SSSU's for style, after all!

I do agree with you on Bear Claw/Stampede, though, but I believe the generally-agreed counter-argument goes as follows: "lol noob who plays a throwbarb" (or similarly, "lolnoob just max Overkill")

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